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Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

bbc.com

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Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#71

Post by robotkilla »

robotresearcher wrote: post #46
robotkilla wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually tired of the "blame the general public" argument. Blame the agricultural industry for this. I'm not going to take the blame for deforestation or lack of fresh water every time I eat a cheesburger, nor am I going to assume blame for pollution when I drive my car. Unless billions of people change within the next few years (which is so unrealistic that I feel comfortable saying it won't happen) then my indi…

final edit: I withdraw the comment below since the analogy is too inflammatory and I certainly don't intend to accuse the parent poster of racism. That's not cool or helpful. I'll leave it up so the replies make sense. How about this quote from Ghandi instead: “If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards…

> personal responsibility is the basis of good society-wide behaviour

I actually agree with this statement, however the problem of cheap meat can't be solved with good societal behavior unless its enforced on a global scale starting with the united states and that's simply not going to happen unless it is enforced by regulations placed on the out of control agricultural industry.

shaming individuals (which is what the original parent thread was all about) isn't a good plan -- it won't work.

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#72

Post by arethuza »

prebrov wrote: post #65
cup wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing up immigration in a conversation about antibiotic resistance, knowing what we know about animal farming practices is ridiculous. An analogy is like complaining about one leaking faucet in a conversation about drought when everyone is watering their garden.

I think his argument was that poorly supervised mass migration, specifically from places with poor healthcare and agriculture practices spreads readily available drug-resistant bacteria to places where otherwise there'd be none or little of them. And that is a fair point, imo. We enforce strict border control to protect ourselves from Ebola, SARS and other infectious diseases we can't treat. I would assume poster exp…

See, you managed to put the same point in a reasonable way without raving about political correctness, liberals/lefties and invoking Trump. Which is the kind of comment I expect from HN... :-)

So have an upvote.

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#73

Post by noondip »

robotkilla wrote: post #45
jMyles wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to discount your worldview, because I think that you are correct in your basic assessment ( massive change is required, not just you), but this comment reads like a giant excuse. It's plain to see that eating a factory cheeseburger does indeed cause this ill. It's not some strange economic abstraction, but an easy-to-see, real world example.

> It's plain to see that eating a factory cheeseburger does indeed cause this ill I'm very confused by your plan of action... shame the general public until they stop eating meat saturated by antibiotics? In your plan, how many people will you need to deter in order to make a difference? Will the agricultural industry suddenly stop using antibiotics because a hundered thousand people stop eating at McDonnalds? Two mi…

Perhaps it is you who is naive to the so-called nirvana logical fallacy?

> Comparing a realistic solution with an idealized one, and dismissing or even discounting the realistic solution as a result of comparing to a “perfect world” or impossible standard. Ignoring the fact that improvements are often good enough reason.

Indeed, absolving oneself of personal responsibility, especially when direct harm is so apparent, is sad to see. I think it is a form of apathy and not conducive to an actually better world. How can you honestly, "blame the industry" yet the very same day, support it with your money? It's simply hypocrisy.

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#74

Post by e40 »

anon79b8ad22b wrote: post #64

> We need to start discussing immigration without the stifling constraints of political correctness. Leftists only support immigration because the immigrants vote overwhelmingly for left-wing parties. It's effectively a grand scheme to establish permanent majorities for left-wing parties through demographic replacement. If these immigrants were white, Christian, and conservative, walls would have already gone up to p…

Leftists only support immigration because the immigrants vote overwhelmingly for left-wing parties.

BS. I know a lot of liberal people and I guarantee not one of them supports immigration on those grounds.

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#75

Post by azakai »

robotkilla wrote: post #32
jMyles wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds cruel, but I think we need to call people out when they eat factory meat.

I'm actually tired of the "blame the general public" argument. Blame the agricultural industry for this. I'm not going to take the blame for deforestation or lack of fresh water every time I eat a cheesburger, nor am I going to assume blame for pollution when I drive my car. Unless billions of people change within the next few years (which is so unrealistic that I feel comfortable saying it won't happen) then my indi…

I understand the hopeless feeling of "what can one person do." But the individual actions of individuals do add up.

We are seeing right now a trend towards better farming practices, with large chains like Chipotle going antibiotic-free. They are doing that, in part, because enough individuals made the choice to look for antibiotic-free food. In other words, individuals drove corporations to act.

Individual actions also add up directly, even without influencing corporations. If you eat even a little less of a harm-causing food, that's an actual impact on the market. Less of the product is being bought, and less will (eventually) be produced. It's a small effect, hard to see, but it is definitely there - it has to be.

And even if you think "oh, it rounds off", then yes, maybe they can produce 1,000 or 2,000 but not 1,001, so most likely reducing 1 won't affect production. But that just means that a single individual going from 1,001 to 1,000 will reduce 1,000, and that averages out - the probabilistic effect of an individual remains the same, and again, it has to be, assuming reasonable rational production.

Finally, there are indirect effects: If you eat less of a harmful product, your coworkers, friends, and family might notice. It might lead them to make a similar positive change. Hard to measure, but we do know this is an important factor.

I do agree we shouldn't "blame the general public" in the sense of blame/shame/etc. But at the same time, we can't give up and say we can't do anything, because our individual actions definitely do have an effect. To some extent, we can make things better.

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#76

Post by maxerickson »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #68
vanilla-almond wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" In the US, you can keep them in miserable conditions and then pump them full of antibiotics before slaughtering. " How do you explain this then? (posted below by legulere) http://i.imgur.com/9ybmhwE.jpg

I can only speculate. For example: how was this data obtained? Is the level of scrutiny equal for all countries or is there some self-reporting going on? All I know is about the differences that exist between regulations and incentives between the EU and the US. This was recently brought to public attention in the EU and there have been some large protests because of the TTIP attempt to "harmonize" practices. http://…

Where's it say that antibiotics can't be used medically in livestock in the EU?

I see where it says antibiotics in animal feed – significantly restricted in the EU in 1998 and banned for non-medical use in 2006., but that points to them being allowed for medical purposes (on sick animals, rather than as feed additives).

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#77

Post by leohutson »

cbeach wrote: post #34

Studies show that immigration, sadly, is linked to the spread of antibiotic-resistant diseases. Example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25418572/ Immigrant hotspots in London now have tuberculosis rates higher than Iraq and Rwanda. 80% of cases are people born abroad, and some are antibiotic-resistant. This is a disease we thought we'd erradicated: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34637968 The U.K. h…

The abstract of paper you shared was interesting, but the reason you are being down voted is probably because of the tabloid level of political spin you have forced on it, and the crank-like way that you have tried to make yourself out as a victim because of intolerance for the "controversial" synthesis you have presented.

Migration in the context of epidemiology has nothing to do with your political status in that country, and has everything to do with your physical presence, and contact with other people in that location.

Sure, shut the UK's boarders to all international travel. Perhaps you'll manage to stop sex tourists from bringing back super-gonorrhoea from the third world.

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#78

Post by isolate »

robotkilla wrote: post #45
jMyles wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to discount your worldview, because I think that you are correct in your basic assessment ( massive change is required, not just you), but this comment reads like a giant excuse. It's plain to see that eating a factory cheeseburger does indeed cause this ill. It's not some strange economic abstraction, but an easy-to-see, real world example.

> It's plain to see that eating a factory cheeseburger does indeed cause this ill I'm very confused by your plan of action... shame the general public until they stop eating meat saturated by antibiotics? In your plan, how many people will you need to deter in order to make a difference? Will the agricultural industry suddenly stop using antibiotics because a hundered thousand people stop eating at McDonnalds? Two mi…

When people try this kind of thing on me (frequently it happens if I mention that I shop at Walmart on occasion), I just ask if they own any mutual funds (including pension funds). If they don't, I ask if they pay taxes. If they don't, I ask if they ever give money to someone who might own mutual funds or pay taxes. If they don't, I ask if they ever give money to homeless people.

I understand the general argument about taking a bit of personal responsibility, even if it's basically just symbolic. Rather, it's the absolutism that irritates me. In my opinion, eating less at McDonald's and shopping less at Walmart is about as good as never going to those places.

Besides, if you're really a loving, compassionate, open-minded citizen of the planet, wouldn't it be good to spend some time in these places next to the most downtrodden members of our society?

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#79

Post by yk »

themartorana wrote: post #2

Officials say the threat to human health is low, but is under ongoing review. I feel better? Is my kid going to live in a post-apocalyptic world where a new Black Plague has wiped out 2/3 of the population because it is completely antibiotic resistant? Or will new solutions (maybe ones that attack at a molecular level) be available first? I'm not asking rhetorically, any input would be awesome.

(Take this as coming from someone who pays attention for some time, but is not really knowledgeable about medicine.) People are today a lot healthier than they were 50 years ago. This alone helps a lot. Additionally we have better disinfectants and better procedures and better non antibiotic drugs. So the other parts of our defense in depth are largely intact.

Additionally I read some time ago that the problem is not the difficulty of developing new antibiotics, but the collapse of antibiotics research in the 80ies. So once the field is back up, there should be new antibiotics.

So as far as I understand it, the lack of antibiotics is a big problem, but a big problem on the scale of thousands are gonna die, not millions are gonna die.

Re: Bacteria that resist 'last antibiotic' found in UK

#80

Post by robotkilla »

noondip wrote: post #73
robotkilla wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's plain to see that eating a factory cheeseburger does indeed cause this ill I'm very confused by your plan of action... shame the general public until they stop eating meat saturated by antibiotics? In your plan, how many people will you need to deter in order to make a difference? Will the agricultural industry suddenly stop using antibiotics because a hundered thousand people stop eating at McDonnalds? Two mi…

Perhaps it is you who is naive to the so-called nirvana logical fallacy? > Comparing a realistic solution with an idealized one, and dismissing or even discounting the realistic solution as a result of comparing to a “perfect world” or impossible standard. Ignoring the fact that improvements are often good enough reason. Indeed, absolving oneself of personal responsibility, especially when direct harm is so apparent,…

> Comparing a realistic solution with an idealized one

Now government regulations placed on the agricultural industry are idealistic?

> dismissing or even discounting the realistic solution

I am strongly encouraging the more realistic solution, not dismissing or discounting it. How is expecting an impactful number of people to discontinue antibiotic meat usage more realistic than expecting government to step in?

> absolving oneself of personal responsibility

As I stated above, I personally avoid antibiotic raised meat, but I simply don't think shaming or blaming low income families is the right move here.

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