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Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#261

Post by fapjacks »

maratd wrote: post #203
ionised wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on what? It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression. > The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.

> It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help. You can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive whatever care you need even without insurance or payment on-hand . Mind you, the government provides insurance to the poor and elderly. It has been this way for a very long time.…

> We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help.

We absolutely do not, and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. Europe has vastly less wealth disparity, and many more social welfare programs that ensure a pretty high degree of social mobility. The United States doesn't hold a candle to most of Europe in this regard. And you know something infuriating? My tax rate is only 10% less where I live in the States than what it will be when I move to Sweden. Our taxes are high as hell and we get basically nothing for them. A nice weapons development program, and there's something to be said for that, and then the Social Security ponzi scheme. But nothing else. Sweden has a huge number of beneficial programs that actually help people when they need it.

And your one citation is from the Heritage Foundation.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#262

Post by dang »

rasz_pl wrote: post #220
nashashmi wrote: post #78

I just took a look at the Map of Michigan. I realized after zooming into Flint to try to understand where the water was coming from that Michigan has many, many bodies of water scattered all around the place. Plus they are right next to the world's biggest lakes. And yet they never took care of their water supply? The one state with so much fresh water has little regulation on keeping water protected. I keep wonderin…

Clean water is bad for business.

You've been posting unsubstantive and inflammatory comments to HN. That breaks the site guidelines, so please don't do that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#263

Post by ezy »

kevinpet wrote: post #97
anon1385 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The toxicity of lead is actually a longstanding political argument in the US. Lobbying against lead regulation was one of the original motivations for the development of modern american libertarianism. Even fairly recently libertarian organisations like the Cato Institute have been fighting against regulation of lead and against compensation for those poisoned. When the topic of lead comes up on HN you often get comm…

Citation needed. On cato.org, I can find articles arguing against retroactive liability for lead paint manufacturers (since what they did was considered safe at the time they did it), and articles arguing that the 1970s introduction of unleaded gas was handled poorly and did not reduce lead exposure quickly enough after the problems were recognized. Can you point me to anything from Cato Institute that questions in a…

You aren't in a position to demand anything.

And, admit it -- you didn't look that hard. In fact, your research was so weak, that you failed to point out additional Cato-published opinions re:lead -- literally in the top google search results for the appropriate terms. Failing to do research when being critical is not anyone else's problem but your own.

If you want to apply your skepticism correctly, the point is to test your own beliefs, not ask everyone else to test theirs. Not just reading from the sources that make you comfortable or attacking easy marks, but reading sources you disagree with, with a generous attitude and thinking about the hard questions related to those.

A lot of the time, you'll find you are correct! And then when someone says something you know is incorrect, you'll actually have something to say, rather than asking them to say it for you. Otherwise, one should not be happy with following a fixed ideology, and you should be happy when people point out flaws -- as no one is happy with a clock that is correct only half the time.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#264

Post by shostack »

StillBored wrote: post #175
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

A few years ago before the oil boom in west Texas, I was going to run a camera through some of the towns that were off major highways, and compare them with some of the little towns in a Mexico or some other place we consider poor. In many ways the ones in Texas look worse because the population was dying as well, houses with the roof caving in, main streets without a single open business, etc. I'm often surprised by…

Something tells me the remodeling isn't the reason nobody wants to build a startup there.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#265

Post by toomuchtodo »

Tossrock wrote: post #167
russdill wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm...reading further the problem doesn't seem to be one handled well by EPA standards. The new water supply is more corrosive than the old water supply, so in poorer neighborhoods with lead piping, more lead (sometimes significantly) is being leeched from the pipes than before.

Why are they using lead pipes? I understand that they may have a legacy system put in place before the dangers of lead were fully understood, but when your water distribution system is literally made of poison, I don't understand how replacing it could be back-burnered.

That's how America works unfortunately.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#266

Post by toomuchtodo »

humanrebar wrote: post #181
tptacek wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $1/$4.50 figure isn't due to military spending, for what it's worth.

Being pretty close to $1/$1 seems about the right, though. If a city can't support itself, it can't support itself, right? Why should it be subsidized? Same goes for Florida, for whatever it's worth.

Because that's how the state/federal financial model works. Some states are a burden (usually poor conservative states), some states pay for more themselves (New York, California, to name the biggest).

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." as it were.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#267

Post by mturmon »

Tossrock wrote: post #167
russdill wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm...reading further the problem doesn't seem to be one handled well by EPA standards. The new water supply is more corrosive than the old water supply, so in poorer neighborhoods with lead piping, more lead (sometimes significantly) is being leeched from the pipes than before.

Why are they using lead pipes? I understand that they may have a legacy system put in place before the dangers of lead were fully understood, but when your water distribution system is literally made of poison, I don't understand how replacing it could be back-burnered.

In theory, you are right. In practice, replacement of legacy lead pipes is more complex.

Briefly: replacing only some of the pipes can cause lead levels to increase due to (1) disturbance of nearby lead pipes during replacement; (2) ongoing galvanic effects near the replacement; (3) interfaces between the utility's new lead-free lines and a customer's old lead lines, if the customer does not choose to replace at the same time the utility does.

Point (3) is especially troublesome. Even if the utility replaces all its lead pipes, things could get much worse for customers that don't follow suit right away.

For (much) more: http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investigations/tox...

All these issues are just about pipe replacement, as distinct from higher lead levels due to pH changes or use of chloramines rather than chlorine (which was a surprise, see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1817707/).

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#268

Post by sedachv »

analyst74 wrote: post #166
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

Despite US's overall economical and military dominance, the poor parts of US is really bad. Especially to people from other first-world countries who thought US is similar to their own country. For the Americans who have not traveled abroad, countries in northern Europe, Canada/Australia generally do not have the level of poverty some parts of US suffers.

In Canada (and Australia from what I have read, but not personally seen) the level of poverty in many Native towns is certainly comparable.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#269

Post by humanrebar »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #266
humanrebar wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being pretty close to $1/$1 seems about the right, though. If a city can't support itself, it can't support itself, right? Why should it be subsidized? Same goes for Florida, for whatever it's worth.

Because that's how the state/federal financial model works. Some states are a burden (usually poor conservative states), some states pay for more themselves (New York, California, to name the biggest). "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." as it were.

> Some states are a burden (usually poor conservative states)

Yeah, I'm not sure the math is simple enough to say that definitively. People from those states are disproportionately represented in the military, for example, and there's no way to add "deaths in overseas wars" to help balance the books.

There's also a tendency to count infrastructure projects for states as being for those states. But good highways through the Midwest, for example, are also used for shipping goods coast-to-coast. The locals in Podunk, WY certainly wouldn't choose a superhighway as their first infrastructure project if they were handed 10 million dollars.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#270

Post by fein »

flubert wrote: post #235
fein wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was one house out of at least 4 that are abandoned on that street alone. Just clicking around on streetview shows you some pretty dismal images in the area.

That white house with the black Jeep out front? I don't think that one is abandoned. Or at least I'd strongly suspect that there are people living there. I don't see graffiti, or broken windows, or garbage strewn everywhere. The cars in the neighborhood seem to be newer and clean. This has the beginnings of an interesting HN poll. Put up a link like like that, and ask: "Take a look at this neighborhood, and tell us w…

It started as 2 and 5. Abandoned houses peppering the neighborhoods continually degrades 5. Home values have plummeted in this area.

3, 4 currently apply (I'm from the area. Many of us in NEO have a conditions like this nearby), and if the lack of upkeep continues, is headed towards 1.

6 would qualify if you're comparing it 3rd world country poverty living standards or if you really want to be optimistic.

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