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Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

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Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#201

Post by yummyfajitas »

tptacek wrote: post #130
yummyfajitas wrote: post #80

So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess. At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time off…

The country will pick up the tab for Flint, because that is how the country works. The expectation that Michigan and then the federal government will provide assistance isn't something Flint invented: it's part of the deal. Not enough money flows to places like Flint. Michigan just barely ekes out a return on dollars remitted to the IRS; they're in the bottom quartile of benecifiaries. Meanwhile, for every $1 a Flori…

Reread what I wrote. I didn't suggest we shouldn't help the humans in Flint. I suggested we should do so in a way that solves the problem for the humans once and for all.

The comparison to Florida is silly. Florida gets a lot of money that a) is for the national good (naval bases) and b) follows humans around (SS/medicare). The fact that humans work in NY and retire to Florida doesn't mean that we somehow owe Flint an infinite stream of subsidies.

I do oppose the variety of unfair subsidies that Florida does get, e.g. bailouts after hurricanes predictably destroy cheaply made houses.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#202

Post by henrikschroder »

paulddraper wrote: post #184
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

> I'm at a loss for words > To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying houses. You're at a lost for words because of some old houses? At least there aren't gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning for days. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328952/Sweden-riots... I'm not saying either US or Sweden is a nightmare; just that every place has its uglier side. If you'…

> gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning

That's quite the hyperbole compared to what actually happened.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#203

Post by maratd »

ionised wrote: post #146
maratd wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries. Based on what? > So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones. The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU, in every respect. You have those that are poor living blocks away from the wealthiest people in the world. My own state of New Jersey is one of the most affluent, but also has…

> Based on what? It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression. > The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.

> It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare

We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help. You can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive whatever care you need even without insurance or payment on-hand. Mind you, the government provides insurance to the poor and elderly. It has been this way for a very long time.

A full 66% of our federal budget is devoted to exactly these types of programs. That's over 2 trillion dollars. Every year.

http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/budget-entitlement-pro...

Where are you getting your silly notions?

> What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.

I wasn't talking about the country-level. Read what I wrote.

The US is highly diverse on a street level. Rich live with the poor, side by side. This is not the case in Europe. In Europe, the classes are highly segregated.

In the US, there is a very real attempt at having diverse neighborhoods with people of different backgrounds living side by side. Can you point to the same in the EU? And you want to talk about equality?

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#204

Post by tptacek »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #201
tptacek wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country will pick up the tab for Flint, because that is how the country works. The expectation that Michigan and then the federal government will provide assistance isn't something Flint invented: it's part of the deal. Not enough money flows to places like Flint. Michigan just barely ekes out a return on dollars remitted to the IRS; they're in the bottom quartile of benecifiaries. Meanwhile, for every $1 a Flori…

Reread what I wrote. I didn't suggest we shouldn't help the humans in Flint. I suggested we should do so in a way that solves the problem for the humans once and for all. The comparison to Florida is silly. Florida gets a lot of money that a) is for the national good (naval bases) and b) follows humans around (SS/medicare). The fact that humans work in NY and retire to Florida doesn't mean that we somehow owe Flint a…

No, once again, Florida's figure does not come from military spending.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#205

Post by vadym909 »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

Most foreigners think all of the US looks like New York City or a Beverly Hills suburb because they see that version all the time in the hit movies and on popular TV shows. My relative came to Silicon Valley and was shocked it wasn't like a space-age city with gleaming buildings and futuristic roads. Like truly shocked!

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#206

Post by flubert »

vox_mollis wrote: post #136
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

Bear in mind this is HN. Upper-middle-class people tend to originate from upper-middle-class homes. What many of us grow up in is found to be "shocking" to the Brahmin class.

Yes, sometimes it is quite surprising how sheltered people can be. I wonder how much of a role the asymmetry of TV and other media plays. People who live less affluent lifestyles can get any amount of exposure to extravagant living through TV, etc.. But the reverse doesn't seem to be true. Maybe the BBC will do a show about those strange "fly-over" people someday...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#207

Post by kbenson »

scott_karana wrote: post #172
kbenson wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a building burned down? It would be nice if they fenced it off, so it shows a lack of resources, but I'm not sure that view really indicates what you say it does.

Maybe that's normal looking in the rust belt, but it's unfamiliar looking to me as well. (Can't speak for the Swede, but I suspect they're surprised for similar reasons) There is: 1) A burned down building (which has been in that state for some time) 2) Boarded up storefronts 3) Plants growing over the unused fences, which themselves are starting to fall over 4) The lots behind the fences look to have been empty for…

I'm not saying it doesn't show signs of a neglected area, I just think you're reading too much into certain aspects which may be explained through the area in which the picture was taken.

I'm not sure how long the building has been in that state, but I would imagine less than a year from the vegetation, but that's hard to judge if it all dies in winter. Then again, vegetation usually grows very quickly in those areas. That said, small municipalities move slower, they have less leeway in the budget to deal with unforeseen circumstances.

A lot of what you're stated seems to indicate that you see the open areas here as a sign of neglect or failure. Often in rural areas, building are much more spread out unless they are are towards the town center. There's no reason to build next to someone if you can have a lot or two between you and them. As a city expands, these are naturally filled in as sparse building pushes farther out from the town center and some people don't want to be that far out.

As for the sidewalks and concrete, areas with wet winters that continually fluctuate between freezing and non-freezing temperatures are particularly bad on brick and concrete buildings. The continual expansion of the water when it turns into ice and back into water quickly destroys concrete in these areas. Michigan is known to be particularly bad.

In truth, looking down GlenWood Ave from that picture looks fairly pleasant to me. This could easily be a few hundred feet in either of the towns my parents are from in rural Wisconsin, and much of those towns looks fairly pleasant, if extremely spread out, to my eyes.

For comparison, here's another random spot I found by just choosing a place in google maps and zooming in[1]. Every town has some run-down areas if it's old enough, but having a run-down area doesn't necessarily mean the economy is dead (but I'm not disputing that the economy is likely bad, just that the picture is more indicative of an area than a situation).

1: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0188356,-83.6795166,3a,75y,1...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#208

Post by rasz_pl »

paulddraper wrote: post #184
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

> I'm at a loss for words > To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying houses. You're at a lost for words because of some old houses? At least there aren't gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning for days. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328952/Sweden-riots... I'm not saying either US or Sweden is a nightmare; just that every place has its uglier side. If you'…

He might not even heard about this at all. Such news are heavily editorialized there or outright censored. You dont hear about a group of monkeys raping women on a train, at best you will read about Swedes committing crimes, crossing Swedish border apparently automagically makes you a Swede, or Asian.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#209

Post by fludlight »

ecopoesis wrote: post #195
StillBored wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago before the oil boom in west Texas, I was going to run a camera through some of the towns that were off major highways, and compare them with some of the little towns in a Mexico or some other place we consider poor. In many ways the ones in Texas look worse because the population was dying as well, houses with the roof caving in, main streets without a single open business, etc. I'm often surprised by…

The environmental cleanup is probably a huge part of the reason companies don't invest in the old mills. Besides the mundane things like lead and asbestos, they are also probably all sort of nasties left over from the dyes and other chemicals used in the old mills.

These old factories are sometimes also designated as "historical", which limits the modifications that new tenants can make and greatly increases TI costs.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#210

Post by paulmd »

jostmey wrote: post #149

Someday Silicon Valley may be left in the same disarray and disrepair. Jobs can be outsourced and bright people lured away to work on new things.

Tech is somewhat harder to automate than manufacturing, at least.

Silicon Valley also has a bunch of top-shelf universities nearby, which are a massive boost to local economies. The University of Michigan similarly boosts Ann Arbor's economy.

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