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Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

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Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#121

Post by andor436 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #80

So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess. At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time off…

Don't forget that it was a State-appointed emergency manager that made the water source switch (from Detroit's supply to the Flint River), and the State DEQ that didn't enforce the correct Federal EPA guidelines for water corrosiveness. It's true that Flint has been mismanaged at the local level, but the State has fouled things up pretty well too.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/top_state_...

[edit to add link]

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#122

Post by scott_karana »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

In https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92, the first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere.

The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#123

Post by andor436 »

russdill wrote: post #40
russdill wrote: post #33

The one thing I don't see is the lead levels of the water supply. Doesn't the EPA have limits on that and isn't it an easy thing to test? It is true that different water supplies will have different levels of contaminants (lead, arsenic, etc) but can all be within EPA limits. Switching to a water supply with a higher level of contamination will increase exposure. The medical study seems to look at the percentage of c…

Hmm...reading further the problem doesn't seem to be one handled well by EPA standards. The new water supply is more corrosive than the old water supply, so in poorer neighborhoods with lead piping, more lead (sometimes significantly) is being leeched from the pipes than before.

The State DEQ applied the wrong federal standards: http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/top_state_...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#124

Post by kbenson »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

Yeah, it's not markedly different than some places I've been, but it does look a bit more neglected, because of the overgrowth and lack of cleanup of a burned out building and overturned tree. The roads... Well, I live in California and I'm used to roads being shitty. I think a lot of smaller countries don't quite understand the cost of keeping such a large road network in order. The US is a very large place, and there are roads everywhere.

There are just huge differences in property styles in different parts of the US, and between urban and rural properties.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#125

Post by tptacek »

haswell wrote: post #94
Spien wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the Midwest US looks like that. When I clicked the links I thought was looking at Northern Indiana.

Or many of Chicago's neighborhoods on the south side.

South side Chicago does not look like Flint. The streets are tree-lined, the worst buildings are boarded up, the houses are solid and most of them are brick bungalows. Many tens of thousands of people live there. The worst neighborhoods, like Englewood, are still kept up, and they're bracketed by middle-class neighborhoods like Chatham --- you might not feel comfortable in Chatham, especially if you're from lily-white Startuplandia, but it's a real neighborhood.

South side Chicago is bad in a lot of ways --- it's a direct result of decades of overt racial segregation, and crime is absolutely out of control --- but it isn't Flint.

A better analog would be Gary, Indiana (for people who don't know Chicagoland, Gary is a southeast suburb of Chicago).

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#126

Post by scott_karana »

undersuit wrote: post #59
ekianjo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hydrogen-heavy/acidic water, but it's certainly far better than consuming lead. Yeah, but why would a water with slightly acidic pH be a major problem for health anyway? Numerous mineral waters sold on the market at not at pH 7 in the first place.

Tooth Decay

Well, at least we have solutions to that, unlike young-child lead poisoning.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#127

Post by kbenson »

scott_karana wrote: post #122
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

In https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 , the first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere. The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...

Because a building burned down? It would be nice if they fenced it off, so it shows a lack of resources, but I'm not sure that view really indicates what you say it does.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#128

Post by maratd »

evmar wrote: post #82
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

The way I try to understand it is that the US is about the same size as the EU, has the same magnitude of population, and generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries. So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones.

> generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries.

Based on what?

> So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones.

The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU, in every respect. You have those that are poor living blocks away from the wealthiest people in the world.

My own state of New Jersey is one of the most affluent, but also has one of the most dangerous cities in the whole country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey#Crime

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#129

Post by bpicolo »

Ocerge wrote: post #117
hellofunk wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not far from Flint, the city of Detroit now has the world's largest collection of urban ruins, even greater in size and quantity than Rome. Amazing, truly, what you see in that part of Michigan. I lived 2 hours away from there in Central Michigan from end of 2008 - 2010. One of the sadder experiences I had was, one day while out on my daily walk around the neighborhood, there were a mass of people standing around…

I spend a lot of time in Michigan as my company is based in Grand Rapids. It's almost like East and West Germany at times with how much better off Western Michigan is.

And yet Ann Arbor is in East Michigan, and it's one of the best towns in the entire country, probably largely thanks to the University.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#130

Post by tptacek »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #80

So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess. At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time off…

The country will pick up the tab for Flint, because that is how the country works. The expectation that Michigan and then the federal government will provide assistance isn't something Flint invented: it's part of the deal.

Not enough money flows to places like Flint. Michigan just barely ekes out a return on dollars remitted to the IRS; they're in the bottom quartile of benecifiaries. Meanwhile, for every $1 a Floridian pays in taxes, they receive $4.50.

The historical reason Michigan is such a low drag on the USG has a lot to do with the businesses Flint enabled.

This is such a straightforward point to make, and so easily Googlable, that I feel like you have to have known it already. Some of your acerbic comments are interesting because they bring a perspective to these discussions that I (for one) wouldn't think to consider. This was not one of those comments.

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