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Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#91

Post by forrestthewoods »

jonknee wrote: post #73
forrestthewoods wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I was just thinking the other day that I hear about Flint, Michigan all the time. Relatively speaking at least. It's not even in the top 300 for city size yet I hear about it relatively often. Certainly more than Las Cruces, New Mexico. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...

It's frequently referred to as an example of a wasteland, but not referred to as a place of possibility.

I swear there's something in the water in Flint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Flint,_Mic...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#92

Post by sophacles »

rayiner wrote: post #44
foolrush wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subtly attempts to frame the issue as public controlled water. A counterpoint might be that the companies with a vested interest in privitising water supplies have lobbied to choke out the public systems of funding. Perhaps instead of cutting deplorable tax breaks for big business, it would be more prudent to augment the public funds to prevent your citizens from getting lead poisoning? http://www.theguardian.com/glo…

What big businesses are you talking about? Water in almost every U.S. city is provided by a municipal utility. E.g. in Flint, it's the Utilities Department: https://www.cityofflint.com/public-works/water-service-cente... . Water rates are set by the city, and are just too low to cover modernization of the systems. Both the ASCE and the EPA have reported that investment in water systems is a fraction of what is requir…

Here's a big water utility company: http://www.amwater.com/about-us/our-states.html

It's pretty common for water supply to be treated as a utility, with municipal monopolies provided - like cable or electricity.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#93

Post by boxy310 »

Spien wrote: post #87
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

A lot of the Midwest US looks like that. When I clicked the links I thought was looking at Northern Indiana.

Central Indiana here. These photos are definitely hard-scrabble, but they're definitely not the worst I've seen even in a 5-mile radius.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#94

Post by haswell »

Spien wrote: post #87
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

A lot of the Midwest US looks like that. When I clicked the links I thought was looking at Northern Indiana.

Or many of Chicago's neighborhoods on the south side.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#95

Post by bluedino »

rtpg wrote: post #12
elorant wrote: post #5

The article failed to explain how the river got so toxic in the first place.

Just a guess, but there's a lot of industrial history in that area, so the river itself has probably been toxic for a very long time.

The river is a lot better than it was 20-40 years ago. It used to not freeze. You used to be only able to eat fish out of there once a month.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#96

Post by paulmd »

ionforce wrote: post #14

What institutional failure led to this? It seems like this has been a long time coming. Why has the leadership of the area allowed this to happen?

Flint's basically bankrupt and the state wants to delay the inevitable, so they installed an "emergency manager" with all the powers of mayor+city council (but accountable only to the governor). The emergency manager wanted to save money by using a local source of water instead of paying Detroit for water. The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality basically knew that the water was so acidic that it would eat through the biofilm on the pipes and start leeching lead (and discussed as much in emails), and gave incorrect advice on measurements to the city to try and hide the problem.

http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/10/interview-flint-mayor-day...

http://michiganradio.org/post/whos-blame-flints-water-crisis...

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/emails_sho...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#97

Post by kevinpet »

anon1385 wrote: post #27
EliRivers wrote: post #6

I particularly like the comments to that article stating that only "liberals" believe the water supply is heaving with lead. The ridiculous political bun-fight infects everything, it seems. It's a mental disease.

The toxicity of lead is actually a longstanding political argument in the US. Lobbying against lead regulation was one of the original motivations for the development of modern american libertarianism. Even fairly recently libertarian organisations like the Cato Institute have been fighting against regulation of lead and against compensation for those poisoned. When the topic of lead comes up on HN you often get comm…

Citation needed. On cato.org, I can find articles arguing against retroactive liability for lead paint manufacturers (since what they did was considered safe at the time they did it), and articles arguing that the 1970s introduction of unleaded gas was handled poorly and did not reduce lead exposure quickly enough after the problems were recognized.

Can you point me to anything from Cato Institute that questions in any way the toxicity of lead? Your phrase "toxicity of lead is actually a longstanding political argument" and you associate this with libertarianism. Please support or retract this claim.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#98

Post by xd1936 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #80

So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess. At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time off…

The infrastructure for solid factory work is all still there. They just need a collection of companies from another industry to capitalize on the manufacturing assets there.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#99

Post by Spooky23 »

rayiner wrote: post #76
Spooky23 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really a ridiculous argument. The lifespan of drinking water system infrastructure is anywhere from 50-100 years -- far to long to pay as you go or accumulate money to pay for repairs later. The way you fix infrastructure is with bonds, which the public owned entity has a major advantage in doing, as it has a tax base to secure the bond as well as tax exempt status. The other infrastructure issue is that older…

The amount of revenue coming into the water department doesn't matter for getting financing?

Not current revenue.

Bonds for something like are typically secured by revenue. When they issue a revenue bond, they need to have the ability to raise the rates to cover the bond. Current rates only matter if they are too high.

The situation in a place like Flint or Detroit is complicated by the fact that the municipality is depopulating, and they cannot afford the infrastructure built for a few million people that now serves far fewer. In any case, a private entity doesn't have a magical ability to fix this stuff. A private company would just buy the future cash flows at a discount and farm the resource for as long as possible.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#100

Post by chestervonwinch »

Spien wrote: post #87
andrelaszlo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

A lot of the Midwest US looks like that. When I clicked the links I thought was looking at Northern Indiana.

For those interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt
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