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Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

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Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#171

Post by kbenson »

ionised wrote: post #146
maratd wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> generally has less interest in equality of its citizens than EU countries. Based on what? > So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones. The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU, in every respect. You have those that are poor living blocks away from the wealthiest people in the world. My own state of New Jersey is one of the most affluent, but also has…

> Based on what? It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression. > The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.

> It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression.

You seem to be mistaking our inability to come to a consensus on multiple aspects of these issues with a "fundamentalist opposition. It's unfortunate, but one of the defining aspects of American culture which has served us well over the years, our reliance on self determination and belief that hard work is rewarded, also* yields attitudes that if you aren't doing well then you aren't working hard enough or trying hard enough. Obviously neither of these views are entirely true, but confronting one affects the other, and getting people to reexamine their core beliefs is never easy.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#172

Post by scott_karana »

kbenson wrote: post #127
scott_karana wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 , the first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere. The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...

Because a building burned down? It would be nice if they fenced it off, so it shows a lack of resources, but I'm not sure that view really indicates what you say it does.

Maybe that's normal looking in the rust belt, but it's unfamiliar looking to me as well. (Can't speak for the Swede, but I suspect they're surprised for similar reasons)

There is:

1) A burned down building (which has been in that state for some time)

2) Boarded up storefronts

3) Plants growing over the unused fences, which themselves are starting to fall over

4) The lots behind the fences look to have been empty for decades

5) Visibly aging concrete

6) Crumbling sidewalks with plants coming up between the tiles

7) at least 3 of the 5 vehicles are from no newer than ~1998

Combine that with the overcast weather, and the bleak color palette of the remaining buildings, and it looks pretty depressing. :(

Maybe it's not representative: maybe on a sunnier day, the greenery would make it look lush and liveable, but as it stands it's definitely an unfortunate looking Street View, that one...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#173

Post by ZoeZoeBee »

fixermark wrote: post #49
rayiner wrote: post #24

What led to this particular situation was apparently rate hikes in the Detroit water system, which caused Flint to switch to using the Flint river as their water source last year. Beyond that, water systems all over the country are in bad shape. Because water rates are subject to public control, they are far too low and there is a huge under-investment in water systems: http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/dr…

Are those the same rate hikes that triggered such a rebellion in the Detroit metropolitan area that people started filling the water shutoff valves with concrete instead of paying their water bills? Damage from Detroit's economic implosion keeps rolling downhill.

No those are not the same rate hikes, and Flint's been rolling downhill separate from Detroit for generations now

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#174

Post by jdnier »

russdill wrote: post #33

The one thing I don't see is the lead levels of the water supply. Doesn't the EPA have limits on that and isn't it an easy thing to test? It is true that different water supplies will have different levels of contaminants (lead, arsenic, etc) but can all be within EPA limits. Switching to a water supply with a higher level of contamination will increase exposure. The medical study seems to look at the percentage of c…

My understanding is that it's not the lead level in the water that's the problem, it's the increased corrosivity of the water coming from the river, which is leaching lead from the pipes. Most homes in Flint still have lead pipes connecting them to city water mains.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#175

Post by StillBored »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #77
rickdale wrote: post #39

I'm glad to see this on HN. Flint is often a forgot about place in the world. I grew up there and now live outside of Flint. My dad was murdered there. But I always think Flint is prime for opportunity. The people need basic essentials, water, food, shelter. But the infrastructure to build factories is there. Power, train lines, the whole deal. It's really a shame. The sad part is, the people are still hell bent on s…

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

A few years ago before the oil boom in west Texas, I was going to run a camera through some of the towns that were off major highways, and compare them with some of the little towns in a Mexico or some other place we consider poor. In many ways the ones in Texas look worse because the population was dying as well, houses with the roof caving in, main streets without a single open business, etc.

I'm often surprised by the ways businesses behave. I was in northern MA last month at a tech company that had recently built a new office building. Not 5 miles away was the town center, which was once a manufacturing hub. In town there were a couple old brick textile factories that were absolutely beautiful old buildings sitting vacant. Those building seem like the exact thing i've seen a couple startups trying to simulate in an office building (hard wood floors, retro lamps, etc with modern open floor plan). Running a medium sized tech company out of a 200 year old textile factory says something, but no one apparently wants to say it. Sure there would be some remodeling expense putting in power/etc but I can't imagine its a huge fraction more than long term rental/ownership/maint of the crap buildings being thrown up that start to fall apart after 10 years.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#176

Post by DanBC »

kevinpet wrote: post #97
anon1385 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The toxicity of lead is actually a longstanding political argument in the US. Lobbying against lead regulation was one of the original motivations for the development of modern american libertarianism. Even fairly recently libertarian organisations like the Cato Institute have been fighting against regulation of lead and against compensation for those poisoned. When the topic of lead comes up on HN you often get comm…

Citation needed. On cato.org, I can find articles arguing against retroactive liability for lead paint manufacturers (since what they did was considered safe at the time they did it), and articles arguing that the 1970s introduction of unleaded gas was handled poorly and did not reduce lead exposure quickly enough after the problems were recognized. Can you point me to anything from Cato Institute that questions in a…

Here's one:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/analysis-run-amo...

> However, research findings that remain controversial except in federal agencies suggest that very low lead levels can decrease children’s IQs. The FDA therefore estimates that 10 percent of all children aged 3 to 6 have “elevated” lead levels (even though exposure has dropped to a 50-year low).

> In other words, anything above zero exposure is assumed to cause measurable lifetime damage, despite the lack of evidence.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#177

Post by termain »

tptacek wrote: post #130
yummyfajitas wrote: post #80

So Flint has failed to govern itself - hardly the first time - and now children are poisoned. The city apparently now expects the rest of the country to pick up the tab for the cleanup of their mess. At some point it should become necessary to recognize and acknowledge that self-government has failed and must end. I'd suggest some form of a city death penalty - declare the city dead and give the locals a one-time off…

The country will pick up the tab for Flint, because that is how the country works. The expectation that Michigan and then the federal government will provide assistance isn't something Flint invented: it's part of the deal. Not enough money flows to places like Flint. Michigan just barely ekes out a return on dollars remitted to the IRS; they're in the bottom quartile of benecifiaries. Meanwhile, for every $1 a Flori…

Well, he did say "Why do we keep them alive as zombies rather than just help the humans and let the municipalities die?"

Is it reasonable to simply pick everyone up and move them? That seems at least plausible, though I'd expect the cost to still fall on the Federal government.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#178

Post by jhallenworld »

I've been trying to understand what the heck happened, since pH management has been standard part of water treatment forever. I mean did they not bother to consult with any water supply engineers first?

It all looks like a game between Emergency Managers appointed by the governor to see who can save the most money fastest.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/24/emergenc...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#179

Post by HillRat »

scott_karana wrote: post #122
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

In https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 , the first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere. The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...

State and local governments can't run deficits, so a collapsing local economy acts like a fiscal vise; capital improvement debts aren't easily rescheduled, so you have reduced tax bases carrying long term debt payments (possibly with nonlinear, back-loaded schedules), and so operations are squeezed and capital improvements are stopped. Once you're in that trap, you can't get out; people and companies who can move will, those who can't become cost sinks as per capita operational costs rise. Without some emergency stabilization mechanism for discharging debt and dealing with necessary operations and improvements, there's no way for a town to return to equilibrium.

The same dynamics can be seen with companies that operate on a negative cash flow basis and who fail to properly buffer a period of improved revenue that later reverts to the mean -- short-term prosperity can mean long-term impovershment.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#180

Post by Shivetya »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #77
rickdale wrote: post #39

I'm glad to see this on HN. Flint is often a forgot about place in the world. I grew up there and now live outside of Flint. My dad was murdered there. But I always think Flint is prime for opportunity. The people need basic essentials, water, food, shelter. But the infrastructure to build factories is there. Power, train lines, the whole deal. It's really a shame. The sad part is, the people are still hell bent on s…

I wanted to see what Flint looks like, so I dropped the little yellow streetview guy randomly. I ended up on Asylum Street (!). I'm at a loss for words: https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2 https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2 https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2 https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32 https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92 https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?) https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut https://goo.gl/maps…

I would suggest you avoid googling romanians in Sweden then. Plus you might find down trodden areas in your country as well. About every country in the world has areas where homes stand abandoned or are in disrepair, the difference mainly being does someone need a news story.

having grown up in Youngstown Ohio I got a good first hand impression of what happens when the big jobs providers go away

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