VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal • Hacker News Board

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#51

Post by masklinn » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 11:11 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #35

masklinn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feynman recounts very much the opposite (of apathy), that engineers and even factory workers had remained surprisingly (to him) involved, interested and high in morale, e.g. recounting his meeting with the workers reshaping and reassembling the solid rocket booster sections: > the point is, the workers were thinking! I got the impression that they were not undisciplined; they were very interested in what they were do…

apathy does not necessarily manifest in bad morale, if anything it can be a coping mechanism. let alone in such groups the idea of not rocking the boat is similar to the Wilder effect; you be what they expect when asked because to disagree causes discomfort or the need to be seen as a team player is real

> apathy does not necessarily manifest in bad morale

Apathy is defined as a lack of interest, enthusiasm or concern, the text I quote is about Feynman finding none of these lacking.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#52

Post by CamperBob2 » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 11:20 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #47

CamperBob2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. When it comes to emissions controls, though, even the worst lawbreakers among us need to breathe.

"Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. " By whose standards/judgments?

That's a complicated question. But I'd start by pointing out that the taxi laws certainly don't have the consent of the governed behind them. If they did, Uber would never have taken such a big chunk of the taxis' market share.

When the laws do not respect the people, the people will not respect the laws. That's not a statement of moral value, it's a statement of fact.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#53

Post by yoodenvranx » Fri, Dec 11, 2015, 1:28 AM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #48

Can German HN readers can explain this to me. My interpretation of German culture was that rule breaking was looked down upon. My own experience traveling in Germany was that rules were deliberately followed, for example, no one ever crossed the street until the Walk sign was present, regardless of it being busy. Honking your horn by an irritated driver happened only once in my 3 weeks there (and the cyclists took th…

We Germans are not perfect at all. Yes, we are good at engineering and yes, we take our rules a bit more serious than other people, but all in all you will find the same problems here as anywhere else. The rulebreaking is just toned down a bit but it still exists.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#54

Post by Terr_ » Fri, Dec 11, 2015, 2:02 AM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #50

Eldarrion wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works if the issue can be resolved via ECU. The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong data when being tested, but that the cars are producing more gasses than they are supposed to. If the update only fixes the software to report correctly, then the car will fail the emissions test. I rather doubt it's only a software fix that will solve the problem. Chances are there will need to be a hardwar…

I believe the issue lies in the cars' ability to fallback to a lower-performance mode when the system recognizes that it's being tested. The low-performance mode passes the tests. The ECU update would require that the "emissions-passing low-performance mode" be engaged permanently. It's not that the cars can't pass emissions, it's that they choose not to. > The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong dat…

Then you have a separate problem: All the people who already forked money over to Volvo will suddenly have their possession downgraded/crippled without compensation.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#55

Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Dec 11, 2015, 2:10 AM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #47

CamperBob2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. When it comes to emissions controls, though, even the worst lawbreakers among us need to breathe.

"Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. " By whose standards/judgments?

Mine, among many others.

You're free to see it differently. I think that makes it "arguable".

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#56

Post by dkokelley » Fri, Dec 11, 2015, 2:30 AM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #54

dkokelley wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the issue lies in the cars' ability to fallback to a lower-performance mode when the system recognizes that it's being tested. The low-performance mode passes the tests. The ECU update would require that the "emissions-passing low-performance mode" be engaged permanently. It's not that the cars can't pass emissions, it's that they choose not to. > The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong dat…

Then you have a separate problem: All the people who already forked money over to Volvo will suddenly have their possession downgraded/crippled without compensation.

True, though Volvo != Volkswagen.

We're left with three options, each of which is unappealing to some group.

1) Leave affected VWs as-is. Fine VW as necessary. Cars will continue to pollute above the permitted amount.

2) Neuter affected VWs. Fine VW as necessary. Owners will suffer performance loss.

3) Neuter/recall affected VWs. Require VW to compensate owners the price of a replacement. Not sure how VW would fare with such a steep fine.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#57

Post by iofj » Fri, Dec 11, 2015, 4:52 AM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #50

Eldarrion wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works if the issue can be resolved via ECU. The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong data when being tested, but that the cars are producing more gasses than they are supposed to. If the update only fixes the software to report correctly, then the car will fail the emissions test. I rather doubt it's only a software fix that will solve the problem. Chances are there will need to be a hardwar…

I believe the issue lies in the cars' ability to fallback to a lower-performance mode when the system recognizes that it's being tested. The low-performance mode passes the tests. The ECU update would require that the "emissions-passing low-performance mode" be engaged permanently. It's not that the cars can't pass emissions, it's that they choose not to. > The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong dat…

If they did that, VW would be sued by customers for not delivering the product they paid for. It has been shown that VW can't eat the charge that would result of even small numbers of customers doing that, and it has been shown that the German state is not willing to destroy VW.

So suddenly the fix is "intensive dialog with the authorities" instead of fixing the problem.