VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal • Hacker News Board

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#41

Post by Eldarrion » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:00 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #11

scott_karana wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the potential EPA fine per-car is $37,500. An amazing move would be for the EPA to force the cars off the road, and force VW to pay for the affected customers' new cars .

Or the EPA could force VW to release an update for the affected cars' ECU, and avoid sending a million perfectly serviceable cars to the landfill. Which, I believe, is what is supposed to happen.

That only works if the issue can be resolved via ECU. The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong data when being tested, but that the cars are producing more gasses than they are supposed to. If the update only fixes the software to report correctly, then the car will fail the emissions test. I rather doubt it's only a software fix that will solve the problem. Chances are there will need to be a hardware alteration to resolve the underlying issue. In that case, an update to the ECU wouldn't resolve the problem. You will need to bring your car to a dealer (Likely a VW-certified dealer) to have the solution applied as well as the software patch to make sure it is reporting correct data while undergoing emissions testing.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#42

Post by alayne » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

johansch wrote: post #27

This sounds like such a German corporate reaction - almost as if it were a caricature - "they didn't follow the process - how can we be responsible? we better double down on process." How about failing in building a corporate culture that rewards openness and learning from failure? This gives me very little hope for VW, and to an extent, for Germany. These top of the crop german execs just don't get it .

Is the incident with GM's ignition switches that killed 100 people the kind of learning from failure we should shoot for?

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#43

Post by Eldarrion » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #38

Swizec wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the bright side, VW is a very small portion of the market In the US. In Europe Volkswagen accounts for 25% of new car registrations. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-17/volkswagen...

They weren't violating European NOx standards.

According to the article they were. They are implementing a fix for European cars because European standards are a bit more lax than the US ones but they still were violating European standards as well.

That said why does it make a difference? If anything, any manufacturer should be doing their best to reduce emissions as much as possible for the sake of the whole world. Just look at the situation currently happening in China. Would you like for your country to be having the same issue, be it France, Germany or the US?

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#44

Post by johansch » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:10 PM UTC

alayne wrote: post #42

johansch wrote: post #27

This sounds like such a German corporate reaction - almost as if it were a caricature - "they didn't follow the process - how can we be responsible? we better double down on process." How about failing in building a corporate culture that rewards openness and learning from failure? This gives me very little hope for VW, and to an extent, for Germany. These top of the crop german execs just don't get it .

Is the incident with GM's ignition switches that killed 100 people the kind of learning from failure we should shoot for?

Please read this:

http://www.governing.com/columns/smart-mgmt/col-culture-open...

"Creating a culture of openness and candor is critical to organizational success. It takes a strong, concerted effort by leaders."

"How could this icon of U.S. industry allow the ignition-switch problem to fester for a decade without recalling the faulty vehicles and without notifying federal authorities (as required) and the public?

The answer seems to lie in the company's culture. For decades, GM was plagued with warring fiefdoms, so it wasn't in one's interest to surface problems in front of your colleagues. And even when problems were brought to senior managers' attention, action was often impeded by poor communications between GM units. As crisis-management expert Gerry Meyers puts it, "In any big organization, there's an effort by lower-level management to insulate upper-level management. And the more layers there are, the less [likely] that a very serious matter can get to the top."

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#45

Post by ssmoot » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:11 PM UTC

awjr wrote: post #13

Theodores wrote: post #3

I just wish one government would say to VW - 'sorry folks, those cars do not meet emission standards, they are destroying the health of the general public to an extent that our health services do not want so please take those cars off the road today.' Thereafter the police being instructed to stop any offending VW found on the roads and tow it to the yard, to be released once VW fixed it, with yard storage charges ap…

Let's be clear, every manufacturer was playing this "game". Yes VW played it harder than most and got caught out. The reality is there is no petrol/diesel manufacturer that has been found to be playing it absolutely down the middle.

When it comes to diesel emissions in the US, I think that's unfair. How many other diesel vehicles are sold in the US that do not include urea injection? Even "3/4" and "1-ton" trucks required it starting 5 years ago. Every other manufacturer I can think of used it. Including VW in some models.

I think VW may be the only manufacturer that sold diesels in the US, after 2010, that didn't include it. (Again, I'm not 100% on that.)

In light of that, while this may be a game "everyone" plays, it seems like VW was playing on a whole other level.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#46

Post by johansch » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:19 PM UTC

alayne wrote: post #42

johansch wrote: post #27

This sounds like such a German corporate reaction - almost as if it were a caricature - "they didn't follow the process - how can we be responsible? we better double down on process." How about failing in building a corporate culture that rewards openness and learning from failure? This gives me very little hope for VW, and to an extent, for Germany. These top of the crop german execs just don't get it .

Is the incident with GM's ignition switches that killed 100 people the kind of learning from failure we should shoot for?

And come to think of it.. WTF! Do you seriously believe that what is wrong with German auto makers is that they don't have enough process? Come on... reality check please.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#47

Post by DannyBee » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:19 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #37

woody223 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's working alright for Uber ;)

Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. When it comes to emissions controls, though, even the worst lawbreakers among us need to breathe.

"Arguably the laws Uber is breaking are themselves immoral. "

By whose standards/judgments?

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#48

Post by balls187 » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:25 PM UTC

Can German HN readers can explain this to me. My interpretation of German culture was that rule breaking was looked down upon. My own experience traveling in Germany was that rules were deliberately followed, for example, no one ever crossed the street until the Walk sign was present, regardless of it being busy. Honking your horn by an irritated driver happened only once in my 3 weeks there (and the cyclists took the driver to task for it).

The name escapes me, but an expat friend of mine living in Germany mentioned there is a government group that is in charge of making sure posted signs follow strict laws (can't find this on Google).

German engineering culture is known for high precision and quality.

Made in Germany has the same brand power that Made in Japan, and Made in the US have.

Given these stereotypes of German culture, to me, it seems out of sorts that VW (arguably one of the most public of German Companies) would have a culture of rule breaking.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#49

Post by balls187 » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:31 PM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #3

I just wish one government would say to VW - 'sorry folks, those cars do not meet emission standards, they are destroying the health of the general public to an extent that our health services do not want so please take those cars off the road today.' Thereafter the police being instructed to stop any offending VW found on the roads and tow it to the yard, to be released once VW fixed it, with yard storage charges ap…

How would you implement this?

How does a police officer know which car is an offending VW or not?

Where does it end? Vehicles that were build prior to tougher emission standards? What about gas engines that are just inefficient, like lawn mowers?

The police just don't have the resources to make these type of nuances decisions.

Note: I own a 2016 VW Golf R, and a 2003 Golf GTI.

Re: VW says rulebreaking culture at root of emissions scandal

#50

Post by dkokelley » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

Eldarrion wrote: post #41

sliverstorm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the EPA could force VW to release an update for the affected cars' ECU, and avoid sending a million perfectly serviceable cars to the landfill. Which, I believe, is what is supposed to happen.

That only works if the issue can be resolved via ECU. The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong data when being tested, but that the cars are producing more gasses than they are supposed to. If the update only fixes the software to report correctly, then the car will fail the emissions test. I rather doubt it's only a software fix that will solve the problem. Chances are there will need to be a hardwar…

I believe the issue lies in the cars' ability to fallback to a lower-performance mode when the system recognizes that it's being tested. The low-performance mode passes the tests. The ECU update would require that the "emissions-passing low-performance mode" be engaged permanently. It's not that the cars can't pass emissions, it's that they choose not to.

> The problem isn't just that the cars are reporting wrong data when being tested, but that the cars are producing more gasses than they are supposed to.

Perhaps my understanding of testing processes is incorrect, but I was under the impression that testing relies on an external testing device, not the car's internal reporting. The cars passed not because they all told the same lie, but because they all behaved properly when they knew they were being watched.