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I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

theguardian.com

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Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#41

Post by jacquesm »

wavefunction wrote: post #37
jacquesm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one problem with the whole story which is that from the viewpoint of a refugee it does not matter what agreements European countries make amongst each other if that knowledge does not make it to the intended recipients. The various EU countries that agreed to this tried very hard to make the whole refugee problem 'somebody else's problem'. By making the Southern countries ('first country of contact') the one…

There's also the matter of the differing social support offered in different countries, from what I've read. The migrants are looking to get to countries with the most generous benefits offered rather than stay in places in "the South" that offer less.

Does the UK offer migrants more generous benefits than France, NL, Germany, Sweden, Belgium?

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#42

Post by dageshi »

nobody_nowhere wrote: post #4
klunger wrote: post #2

This article skirts around the critical point that these are not actually refugees. They may have started their journey as a refugee, escaping some horrific conditions in their home country. But then, they traveled through many European safe countries where they could (legally, should) have applied for asylum. And yet, they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason. Now that they are in Calais, they choose to sta…

How does failing to apply for asylum make them no longer refugees? What do they become by your reasoning?

They become economic migrants at that point. They avoid a "safe" country in the hope of reaching one which suits them better in terms of economy/opportunities. The issue of migrants trying to illegally enter the UK via Calais has existed for decades at this point, any improvement to the conditions in Calais would encourage more people to try and make the journey so nothing is done for fear of turning a bad situation into an even worse one.

The UK public saw what happened when Mrs Merkel said there was no limits on the number of refugee's Germany would take, they are not in the mood for their politicians to make a similar mistake.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#43

Post by nordify »

austinjp wrote: post #28
klunger wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, I do not want people starve or freeze to death. I guess I should have made that more clear? But, the term refugee has a very particular meaning and comes with a particular set of rights, re:the UN. See: http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c125.html I have no expertise in policy-level decisions, my volunteer work is on a very local level. I do not know what should happen.

The French and UK governments are notoriously keen to bat this political ball aggressively back and forth. Any special agreement between them to cope with this specific situation will likely take months of negotiation. Add to this that the UK government is posturing over seceding from both Europe and European Human Rights, and it adds up to a sorry situation. Out of curiosity, what are the "obligations" on these asyl…

> Out of curiosity, what are the "obligations" on these asylum seekers?

By law, asylum seekers are obligated to register in the first EU country they arrive. Failing to do so results in illegal entry and/or stay and is grounds for deportation.

That's what the law says. Whether it's morally right or wrong is another matter.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#44

Post by mapt »

wavefunction wrote: post #37
jacquesm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one problem with the whole story which is that from the viewpoint of a refugee it does not matter what agreements European countries make amongst each other if that knowledge does not make it to the intended recipients. The various EU countries that agreed to this tried very hard to make the whole refugee problem 'somebody else's problem'. By making the Southern countries ('first country of contact') the one…

There's also the matter of the differing social support offered in different countries, from what I've read. The migrants are looking to get to countries with the most generous benefits offered rather than stay in places in "the South" that offer less.

They're looking for places with jobs, and permission for them to exist.

Jobs provide the lowest common denominator social support system, which does not require extensive registration or a philosophy of charity or citizen status or a cousin on friendly terms or anything.

If there are jobs available, formal or informal, people will move.

There are no jobs available in the places they've been flooding into. They saturated the labor market. So they're trying to keep moving. Jobs are necessary to provide themselves with comfortable lives, rather than handouts that are limited in size and which could be snatched back at any point.

"I've heard there are jobs in California" during the Dust Bowl is a sentiment that would have made vast refugee camps if California had a moat around it and refused use of the bridges. Those people were not social parasites, they were fleeing exogenous conditions (war, drought) that destroyed their lifestyles, and they were seeking new ones.

Solitary asylum cases are a drastically different thing than mass movements of refugees claiming asylum. There is always an economic dimension to the latter; They have witnessed their whole society fall apart and spent or abandoned everything to escape, of course they're looking for jobs.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#45

Post by nordify »

jacquesm wrote: post #41
wavefunction wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the matter of the differing social support offered in different countries, from what I've read. The migrants are looking to get to countries with the most generous benefits offered rather than stay in places in "the South" that offer less.

Does the UK offer migrants more generous benefits than France, NL, Germany, Sweden, Belgium?

Not really. Availability of work seems to be a motivator, as well as familiarity and image.

"Why do the “migrants” in Calais want to come to the UK?

This being the real world, there is no easy answer to the question “why?” Work, friends, family, language, historical links to the UK and, ironically, the UK’s reputation for fairness, tolerance and welcome all play their role."

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/why-do-the-migrants-in-calai...

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#46

Post by [deleted] »

zzalpha wrote: post #3
klunger wrote: post #2

This article skirts around the critical point that these are not actually refugees. They may have started their journey as a refugee, escaping some horrific conditions in their home country. But then, they traveled through many European safe countries where they could (legally, should) have applied for asylum. And yet, they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason. Now that they are in Calais, they choose to sta…

Wait wait wait. So are you saying these people deserve it and that the government is right to allow these folks to freeze and starve? I just want to be clear on your position, here. Because, to be blunt, on its face it seems pretty monstrous.

[deleted]

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#47

Post by seivan »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #40
vlehto wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also housing, feeding and clothing people in EU right now creates pressure for refugees. Which means means people drowning in Mediterranean. Not taking incentives into account often results exacerbating the problem. Like in India children get their arms chopped off. So they would get more pity and money while begging for Mafia. "Road to hell is pawed with good intentions"

> ""Road to hell is pawed with good intentions"" There are no good intentions causing problems here, Western governments are deliberately destabilising their country, we have a moral responsibility to help the refugees that escaped as a result.

Their country? who is They?

Who is western? It's Assad, Iran and Turkey.

We used to tell people to stop reading Fox news, now I feel like Vox and The Guardian is at play here.

Maybe you should talk to "they" who still are in those countries.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#48

Post by zzalpha »

tzs wrote: post #39
lumberjack wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades. It could have funded live saving medical treatment for many people who could not afford it. And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house. That's monstrous. You're not morally superior to any of us first worlders. We enjoy our privilege.

I don't see how that is relevant to the comment you are replying to. His complaint is that he thought someone was saying that the people in need deserve what is happening to them and so should not be helped.

Well I see at least someone got it...

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#49

Post by vlehto »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #40
vlehto wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also housing, feeding and clothing people in EU right now creates pressure for refugees. Which means means people drowning in Mediterranean. Not taking incentives into account often results exacerbating the problem. Like in India children get their arms chopped off. So they would get more pity and money while begging for Mafia. "Road to hell is pawed with good intentions"

> ""Road to hell is pawed with good intentions"" There are no good intentions causing problems here, Western governments are deliberately destabilising their country, we have a moral responsibility to help the refugees that escaped as a result.

If you are talking about U.S. actually going into Syria, picking orphaned children and maimed people. Then fly them to U.S. proper, provide for them and educate them? I could not agree more.

And if U.S. does this to lets say 10k people, EU should take another 10K. This would not solve any real problem in the Middle east, but it would be very noble gesture.

But that would be pretty much opposite to what is happening in Europe right now. The people get help who prioritize themselves. Weak are left behind.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#50

Post by ZenoArrow »

seivan wrote: post #47
ZenoArrow wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ""Road to hell is pawed with good intentions"" There are no good intentions causing problems here, Western governments are deliberately destabilising their country, we have a moral responsibility to help the refugees that escaped as a result.

Their country? who is They? Who is western? It's Assad, Iran and Turkey. We used to tell people to stop reading Fox news, now I feel like Vox and The Guardian is at play here. Maybe you should talk to "they" who still are in those countries.

> "Maybe you should talk to "they" who still are in those countries."

Before we talk about what's going on in Iraq and Syria, take a look at what happened in Libya, and explain to me the purpose of this bombing campaign.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fRS5C0Ko2eM

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