I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me • Hacker News Board

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#21

Post by klunger » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

ptaffs wrote: post #5

klunger wrote: post #2

This article skirts around the critical point that these are not actually refugees. They may have started their journey as a refugee, escaping some horrific conditions in their home country. But then, they traveled through many European safe countries where they could (legally, should) have applied for asylum. And yet, they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason. Now that they are in Calais, they choose to sta…

Your response sounds super unsympathetic, but your side note hints at some actual understanding of the situation. Briefly, what should be happening?

Obviously, I do not want people starve or freeze to death. I guess I should have made that more clear?

But, the term refugee has a very particular meaning and comes with a particular set of rights, re:the UN. See: http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c125.html

I have no expertise in policy-level decisions, my volunteer work is on a very local level. I do not know what should happen.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#22

Post by vlehto » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

seivan wrote: post #16

zzalpha wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait wait. So are you saying these people deserve it and that the government is right to allow these folks to freeze and starve? I just want to be clear on your position, here. Because, to be blunt, on its face it seems pretty monstrous.

There are millions starving in Syria vs thousands who managed to get out of ISIS and Assads bombings into Calais. Right now the UN is low on money. What would you do? Keep in mind resources are finite and the resources to help per person is cheaper closer to Syria.

Also housing, feeding and clothing people in EU right now creates pressure for refugees. Which means means people drowning in Mediterranean.

Not taking incentives into account often results exacerbating the problem. Like in India children get their arms chopped off. So they would get more pity and money while begging for Mafia.

"Road to hell is pawed with good intentions"

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#23

Post by jsprogrammer » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

lumberjack wrote: post #12

zzalpha wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait wait. So are you saying these people deserve it and that the government is right to allow these folks to freeze and starve? I just want to be clear on your position, here. Because, to be blunt, on its face it seems pretty monstrous.

Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades. It could have funded live saving medical treatment for many people who could not afford it. And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house. That's monstrous. You're not morally superior to any of us first worlders. We enjoy our privilege.

>Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades.

>And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house.

What? How can an iPhone6 be transformed into food in India?

Edit; WTF? A comment two above me got [flagged] and removed? I thought we were trying to have a conversation here.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#24

Post by schiffern » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:10 PM UTC

vlehto wrote: post #19

ptaffs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response sounds super unsympathetic, but your side note hints at some actual understanding of the situation. Briefly, what should be happening?

I find it deeply disturbing, that comment dealing with systemic problem is judged by apparent feelings of the commenter.

In your view, is it less disturbing when systemic human problems are worked out without a shred of human compassion? Why or why not?

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#25

Post by amateur_soclgst » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

I think a distinct problem with the most recent flow of migrants into Europe is the idea of 'reliability' and how that effects feelings towards a migrant population.

In many previous migration movements in both Europe and the United States there was some rateable factor between the native population and the migrants. For example, people coming to the US from Cuba were seen as escaping communism for democracy and were seen as good. Similarly with Vietnamese immigrants for example. In Europe the same thing happened after 1991.

Conversely now, other than the fact that the migrants are of a different skin color and religious make up than the majority of Europeans, society does not have the same sympathetic view as compared to the past. There were not Cuban or Vietnamese terrorist strikes on American or European soil, and thus the new migrant wave is seen as a risk.

Also given that that fact that we are still at 'war' with the middle east doesn't lend any help. It is easier for a society to forgive a nation/ethnicity that they've been fighting after said nation has won than while they're still in conflict.

Overall I think the situation is very complex, and theres not a easy way to make Europe accept this wave of migration in comparison to similar waves in the past.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#26

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #23

lumberjack wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades. It could have funded live saving medical treatment for many people who could not afford it. And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house. That's monstrous. You're not morally superior to any of us first worlders. We enjoy our privilege.

>Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades. >And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house. What? How can an iPhone6 be transformed into food in India? Edit; WTF? A comment two above me got [flagged] and removed? I thought we were trying to have a conversation here.

You don't buy the iPhone, and you instead donate those funds to an NGO that buys food in third world countries.

It's pretty simple actually.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#27

Post by zardo » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #23

lumberjack wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades. It could have funded live saving medical treatment for many people who could not afford it. And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house. That's monstrous. You're not morally superior to any of us first worlders. We enjoy our privilege.

>Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades. >And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house. What? How can an iPhone6 be transformed into food in India? Edit; WTF? A comment two above me got [flagged] and removed? I thought we were trying to have a conversation here.

You are familiar with the concept of exchanging goods for money? Money that is used to buy luxuries for one person, could have been used to buy necessities for another.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#28

Post by austinjp » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:19 PM UTC

klunger wrote: post #21

ptaffs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response sounds super unsympathetic, but your side note hints at some actual understanding of the situation. Briefly, what should be happening?

Obviously, I do not want people starve or freeze to death. I guess I should have made that more clear? But, the term refugee has a very particular meaning and comes with a particular set of rights, re:the UN. See: http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c125.html I have no expertise in policy-level decisions, my volunteer work is on a very local level. I do not know what should happen.

The French and UK governments are notoriously keen to bat this political ball aggressively back and forth. Any special agreement between them to cope with this specific situation will likely take months of negotiation.

Add to this that the UK government is posturing over seceding from both Europe and European Human Rights, and it adds up to a sorry situation.

Out of curiosity, what are the "obligations" on these asylum seekers? Should they seek asylum in the first country they can? Why are they not at liberty to travel as far as they are permitted? I thought in fact that this was encouraged by some nations, perhaps making them pawns in national border politics. Their situation feels like "kettling", with The Channel blocking further movement.

Also, what proportion of people fleeing Syria seek asylum in which nations? Is there really a preponderance of them at the French/UK border?

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#29

Post by angersock » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:20 PM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #17

kzhahou wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said there are resources available to help, but for whatever reason these people don't use them. Monstrous?

The commenter said: >they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason This would imply that these people were fully aware of all of their options, which is probably not the case. Many languages are used in Europe and it is doubtful that the people in Calais know all or even most of those languages. Deliberate choice requires full knowledge. The commenter did not establish that these people have full knowledge of th…

Deliberate choice does not require full knowledge.

In this case, they could've stopped anywhere else along their journey, but for whatever reason (benefits, perhaps) have decided to soldier onwards.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#30

Post by w0utert » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

lumberjack wrote: post #7

It's not a refugee camp. Refugees go through the system fairly quickly and get all sorts of help. They definitely are not left destitute. And I really don't see what's so special about them compared to people in similar conditions in India or Uganda or some other poor region of the world.

>> And I really don't see what's so special about them compared to people in similar conditions in India or Uganda or some other poor region of the world.

Or in developed parts of the world, for that matter. People are living on the streets sleeping under cardboard boxes or in the bushes in almost any major city in almost any developed nation, eating whatever they find in trashcans, with no access to healthcare or sanitation either.

Note that I'm not trying to downplay the misery the immigrants in Calais are in, or the terrible things they've endured. It just strikes me as odd that whenever some humanitary crisis occurs that attracts a lot of media attention, they forget about the misery they can find at home every day...