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I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

theguardian.com

31–40 of 55 posts

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#31
post #14
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are people who have successfully made it to a safe country. They are not in the camp because they are refugees fleeing danger, but because they specifically want to get to the UK. Whether or not that is reasonable (e.g. because of family or other reasons) is beside the point of 'are they refugees fleeing danger?'

> because of family or other reasons Another reason would be speaking English and not French. I would really rather not have to apply for asylum in a language I don't speak. And of course if they're fleeing danger and their asylum application is unsafe, then they are unsafe.

> Another reason would be speaking English and not French

Just an aside: Only two countries on the top ten countries for asylum seekers have English as an official language[1][2].

[1] http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/77922000/gif/_...

[2] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24636868

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#32
post #3
post #2

This article skirts around the critical point that these are not actually refugees. They may have started their journey as a refugee, escaping some horrific conditions in their home country. But then, they traveled through many European safe countries where they could (legally, should) have applied for asylum. And yet, they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason. Now that they are in Calais, they choose to sta…

Wait wait wait. So are you saying these people deserve it and that the government is right to allow these folks to freeze and starve? I just want to be clear on your position, here. Because, to be blunt, on its face it seems pretty monstrous.

It seems he is saying that they are not the most important group, everything else is your wild assumptions.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#33
post #2

This article skirts around the critical point that these are not actually refugees. They may have started their journey as a refugee, escaping some horrific conditions in their home country. But then, they traveled through many European safe countries where they could (legally, should) have applied for asylum. And yet, they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason. Now that they are in Calais, they choose to sta…

There is one problem with the whole story which is that from the viewpoint of a refugee it does not matter what agreements European countries make amongst each other if that knowledge does not make it to the intended recipients.

The various EU countries that agreed to this tried very hard to make the whole refugee problem 'somebody else's problem'. By making the Southern countries ('first country of contact') the ones where they should apply for asylum. But there is no mechanism in place that stops people from moving and of course - conveniently - it would make it a non-issue for any of the Northern countries since legally no refugees would be able to apply for asylum there (that didn't stop anybody).

The exception is the UK, and that's where this particular camp comes into play. If the UK would not be an island then this camp would not exist. The fact that so few people end up there shows that borders in the EU really are all about physical barriers. Once in the Schengen area nothing stops you from moving about.

On another note: not all those that land in the EU are aware of these agreements, it's nation states that agreed to this, but they forgot they needed the consent of the refugees themselves as well, who - smart move - do not necessarily want to overstay their welcome in Spain, Greece, Turkey and Italy but would rather spread out a bit. And those countries really are already stretched to the breaking point when it comes to their capacity to accept newcomers so it is actually a good thing that there is a natural tendency to spread out over a much larger surface area.

The Calais camp is a simple artifact of the fact that the North Sea exists, without the sea it would be gone in a few days and those people there have nothing to lose trying to get to the other side. They risked their lives to get there they likely will not stop simply because there is a bit of water.

See the daily run at trucks trying to hide on them to get to the UK.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#34

I think a distinct problem with the most recent flow of migrants into Europe is the idea of 'reliability' and how that effects feelings towards a migrant population. In many previous migration movements in both Europe and the United States there was some rateable factor between the native population and the migrants. For example, people coming to the US from Cuba were seen as escaping communism for democracy and were…

I agree and it scares the crap out of me to think about what might happen in the coming years.

Mostly I'm trying to think of the best course of action for me as an individual. Not doing anything seems like the worst option. But when it comes to doing something, should I:

1. actively fight right-wing sentiment, with probably little effect (mostly preaching to the choir, as most of my friends are highly-educated left-wing liberals). 2. volunteer in a refugee camp, which while personally more satisfying, might waste more 'valuable' things I could do. 3. become politically active in some way, but this would require a significant up-front effort in trying to untangle the situation. 4. try to find longer-term sustainable solutions for refugees who are likely to be here for a long time no matter what happens, faced with few good options (they can't work, can't study, and are often isolated). 5. something else?

I'm currently a bit paralyzed by the possible options, yet for various reasons feel a strong desire to contribute to the problem, perceived or otherwise, of the influx refugees. I'd greatly appreciate some concrete suggestions.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#35
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it deeply disturbing, that comment dealing with systemic problem is judged by apparent feelings of the commenter.

In your view, is it less disturbing when systemic human problems are worked out without a shred of human compassion? Why or why not?

First of all, perceived lack of compassion and actual lack of compassion are two different things. Especially over the internet.

Secondly, judging comments solely by perceived compassion is obviously going to bias the decisions. Things like reason and scale easily get forgotten if compassion is the only criteria.

Thirdly blaming people for not feeling the politically correct emotions is some hardcore thought police shit.

Fourthly compassion is naturally biased towards obviously pathetic people who are physically close. Somebody coming from Uganda might consider Calais a complete non-problem. Someone living in Scotland might find local stray cats more compelling target for charity than any person anywhere.

And there are significant populations who could contribute to the discussion, but are unable to either feel compassion or express it. (For example high functioning autists.)

I really don't mind someone being compassionate while dealing with systemic human problems. But if it's somekind of requirement, it seems like really bad starting point.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#36
post #34

I think a distinct problem with the most recent flow of migrants into Europe is the idea of 'reliability' and how that effects feelings towards a migrant population. In many previous migration movements in both Europe and the United States there was some rateable factor between the native population and the migrants. For example, people coming to the US from Cuba were seen as escaping communism for democracy and were…

I agree and it scares the crap out of me to think about what might happen in the coming years. Mostly I'm trying to think of the best course of action for me as an individual. Not doing anything seems like the worst option. But when it comes to doing something, should I: 1. actively fight right-wing sentiment, with probably little effect (mostly preaching to the choir, as most of my friends are highly-educated left-w…

> 5. something else?

0. Stop the dogmatic multi-culti cult, accept human nature (= we prefer to live with our kind) and strive for a world in which every race and religious group is able to live peacefully and prosper, in its OWN LAND, with its own way of life.

And that includes Europe.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#37
post #2

This article skirts around the critical point that these are not actually refugees. They may have started their journey as a refugee, escaping some horrific conditions in their home country. But then, they traveled through many European safe countries where they could (legally, should) have applied for asylum. And yet, they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason. Now that they are in Calais, they choose to sta…

There is one problem with the whole story which is that from the viewpoint of a refugee it does not matter what agreements European countries make amongst each other if that knowledge does not make it to the intended recipients. The various EU countries that agreed to this tried very hard to make the whole refugee problem 'somebody else's problem'. By making the Southern countries ('first country of contact') the one…

There's also the matter of the differing social support offered in different countries, from what I've read. The migrants are looking to get to countries with the most generous benefits offered rather than stay in places in "the South" that offer less.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#38
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said there are resources available to help, but for whatever reason these people don't use them. Monstrous?

The commenter said: >they deliberately chose not to for whatever reason This would imply that these people were fully aware of all of their options, which is probably not the case. Many languages are used in Europe and it is doubtful that the people in Calais know all or even most of those languages. Deliberate choice requires full knowledge. The commenter did not establish that these people have full knowledge of th…

The author volunteered to cook in the camp. Surely there are also volunteers who explain how to apply for asylum in France?

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#39
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait wait. So are you saying these people deserve it and that the government is right to allow these folks to freeze and starve? I just want to be clear on your position, here. Because, to be blunt, on its face it seems pretty monstrous.

Every luxury you bought could have fed a poor starving family in India for months, maybe even years or decades. It could have funded live saving medical treatment for many people who could not afford it. And yet you chose to buy that iPhone6 or BMW or the bigger house. That's monstrous. You're not morally superior to any of us first worlders. We enjoy our privilege.

I don't see how that is relevant to the comment you are replying to. His complaint is that he thought someone was saying that the people in need deserve what is happening to them and so should not be helped.

Re: I went to help at Calais’s Jungle refugee camp – and what I saw haunts me

#40
post #22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are millions starving in Syria vs thousands who managed to get out of ISIS and Assads bombings into Calais. Right now the UN is low on money. What would you do? Keep in mind resources are finite and the resources to help per person is cheaper closer to Syria.

Also housing, feeding and clothing people in EU right now creates pressure for refugees. Which means means people drowning in Mediterranean. Not taking incentives into account often results exacerbating the problem. Like in India children get their arms chopped off. So they would get more pity and money while begging for Mafia. "Road to hell is pawed with good intentions"

> ""Road to hell is pawed with good intentions""

There are no good intentions causing problems here, Western governments are deliberately destabilising their country, we have a moral responsibility to help the refugees that escaped as a result.

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