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What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

fivethirtyeight.com

51–60 of 119 posts

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#51
post #31

As a non-american, your obsession with race confuses me for one very specific reason: it is all about involvement, and never about achievement. I wonder if this is a consequence of the "every kid gets a trophy" phenomenon, where merely showing up is seen as the key. Not once in that article were graduation rates from colleges, or post-college outcomes, mentioned. Surely, that is the most important factor in improving…

> As a non-american, your obsession with race confuses me for one very specific reason: it is all about involvement, and never about achievement.

As an American, your comment confuses me for one very specific reason: it doesn't at all reflect the actual dialogue about race I've experienced in this country (from all sides of the dialogue), in which very much is about achievement.

> It is weird to me that the US has made the inbetween goal the only goal, e.g. rather than aiming to close racial gaps in outcomes like income, lifespan, likelihood of being a victim of violence etc and promoting policies that can be shown to achieve that, the US has made the goal to close it in opportunity, assuming (hoping?) that will improve outcomes.

Attending formal education at a higher level is, itself, an outcome. Its also an outcome that is proven to improve other outcomes (both for the person experience it, and in future generations, since not only is education attainment measured in highest level attended shown to be a significant influence on income and other outcomes for the person receiving it, its also shown to be a strong factor in educational attainment of that person's children.)

(And, of course, affirmative action and other diversity efforts in colleges aren't the only mechanism, nor is college attendance the only goal, in improving the condition of historically-disadvantaged groups in the US. So the whole criticism of this being the only goal -- which seems to be based on nothing other than the fact that its the focus of the article -- is entirely misplaced.)

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whomever you are, you have had ancestors that enslaved and ancestors that were enslaved.

While true, this is irrelevant. Things like affirmative action do not exist as revenge or compensation for some past act, they are there to undo some of the still present damage from those acts.

There are many asian people who have had ancestors wronged in some way, and many black people who's ancestors had nothing bad done to them (in the US, at least).

Why do you focus your attention entirely on the latter category and also include African/Carribean immigrants into the beneficiary group? Do asian children who are still suffering from wrongs done to their ancestors not deserve help?

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whomever you are, you have had ancestors that enslaved and ancestors that were enslaved.

The things done specially against African-Americans in particular (or non-whites in general) in the US aren't limited to (or even limited to the parts of the US which practiced), and also aren't all as distant in time as, slavery.

This is a wordy appeal to popularity. Are you trying to justify racial bias with the frequency by which it's committed?

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#54
post #46

The article presents an interesting fact. The article claims minority (presumably non-Asian) enrollment drops 23% when AA is banned. The converse of this is that 23% of non-Asian minorities are only there due to affirmative action, and would not be there under a meritocratic system. I was previously told it's racist to believe things like this. The article also begs another question: “The Court expects that 25 years…

> The article claims minority (presumably non-Asian) enrollment drops 23% when AA is banned. The converse of this is that 23% of non-Asian minorities are only there due to affirmative action, and would not be there under a meritocratic system. That assumes that without AA the system would be meritocratic, and not biased in favour of people from particular backgrounds.

Yes, that's because building systems like this is pretty easy. Just use a point system based entirely on grades/extracurriculars/SAT/etc.

For example, google the old U-Mich point system - it was entirely meritocratic except for the +1.0 boost to GPA given to non-Asian minorities, a much smaller alumni preference and some "women in engineering" boost.

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#55

One issue with affirmative action which rarely gets addressed: What is the definition of a certain race anyway? If someone is from two black parents, fine, they're black. But what if one parent was black and one was white, are they black? Are their children black? What about their children's children? Are we going to spin out genetic testing, color cards, or start looking at people's family tree to decide eligibility…

I think you're spot on.

I worked for an Auto Insurance Broker in a former life and they had a state come down on them pretty hard for discriminating against minorities. At the time it was pretty common to jack up the rate factors on particular minorities for a pretty legitimate business reason.

Instead of using race as a rate factor they switched over to a combination of zip code, income, and vehicle age which encompassed pretty much the same demographic but actually ended up improving their overall loss ratio.

I would hope risk analysis has evolved since those days but if not there's a huge opportunity for any aspiring data scientists out there who wish to become actuarials.

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#56
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The converse of this is that 23% of non-Asian minorities are only there due to affirmative action, and would not be there under a meritocratic system." AA and meritocratic systems are not mutually exclusive. Some combination of the two is what is currently used in most college admissions processes. It is inaccurate to say that none of the people in question would be there were it not for AA.

It is inaccurate to say that none would be there without AA. It's completely accurate to say that only 77% of those currently present would be there without AA. It's true that AA is a non-meritocratic hack on top of an otherwise meritocratic system (modulo other small hacks, e.g. large donations and alumni preferences).

Your two sentences are contradictory. If some members of those 23% would be there without AA, then some amount greater than 77% of those currently present would be there without AA.

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#57
post #31

As a non-american, your obsession with race confuses me for one very specific reason: it is all about involvement, and never about achievement. I wonder if this is a consequence of the "every kid gets a trophy" phenomenon, where merely showing up is seen as the key. Not once in that article were graduation rates from colleges, or post-college outcomes, mentioned. Surely, that is the most important factor in improving…

College admissions are hardly the only arena where affirmative action operates. And of course it's not an ideal solution, but it's at least a start.

Where are you from? Quite possibly your country also has some similar sorts of policies, even if it lacks the huge minorities that have suffered past discrimination to the extent some have in U.S. You can start by checking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#58

In other words, not using racial preferences in admissions decisions lets the black college enrollment trends continue; though, as the article doesn't point out, 'not using mandated racial preferences (banning aff. action)' is not the cause of disproportionate representation. I think the argument against affirmative action is more, morally speaking, addressing the question, "should we use racial preference to fight r…

There's no moral question here. We have a disadvantaged group of people who are being actively discriminated against by a majority group. The easiest way as a society to make sure that we treat the group fairly is by creating a system that ensures that they are being represented in the university population. It's good for them, it's good for their classmates, it's good for the university, and it serves long-term goal…

Why does the majority discriminate against themselves and in favor of other minorities (Asians, Jews)?

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chattel slavery was a fairly unique and brutal phenomenon.

How was it more brutal than many of the other instances of slavery throughout history where the owner were allowed to do what they wished with their slaves?

Honestly I don't know what your ultimate point is. Care to elaborate?

Re: What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action in College Admissions

#60
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is inaccurate to say that none would be there without AA. It's completely accurate to say that only 77% of those currently present would be there without AA. It's true that AA is a non-meritocratic hack on top of an otherwise meritocratic system (modulo other small hacks, e.g. large donations and alumni preferences).

Your two sentences are contradictory. If some members of those 23% would be there without AA, then some amount greater than 77% of those currently present would be there without AA.

You are confused. No members of the 23% would be there without AA, according to the article, but all members of the 77% would be.
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