This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University • Hacker News Board

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#231

Post by vox_mollis » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #33

jorgeleo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The REAL strawman is: "What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world."

It is, at least allegedly, real conduct that was, among other things, the reason those Yale students were angry: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/0... . Something real is by definition not a straw man.

They turned away people from a party. From a PARTY. Not a job interview, not a restaurant, not a mortgage lender, not social services. A party.

Social discrimination happens all the time. As a nerd, I've been (back in a time when nerds were shunned) uninvited or turned away from parties plenty of times. Nobody protested on my behalf.

This entire brouhaha over people feeling not-as-popular-as-the-cool-sae-kids is ridiculous. Nobody has a right to social inclusion. The racial angle is a red herring. What happened to these women happens, often worse, to every socially-unpopular person on the planet.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#232

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #95

wmichelin wrote: post #5

I think that this article is fantastic. It highlights what is wrong with all the political correctness going on. To an extent, it is necessary. People shouldn't be made to feel bad about race, gender, or sexuality, but once you start to coddle them, you aren't helping them grow as individuals. People in the real world will treat you like crap, no matter what.

> People in the real world will treat you like crap, no matter what. Why should we accept this?

[deleted]

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#233

Post by forgottenpass » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #143

adventured wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact it's being very openly argued all over the place in US culture today. The recent famous video of the Yale professor that was trying to talk rationally to the irrational students around him - it was all about the students claiming they had a right to not be offended, and the notion that their feelings trumped freedom of speech.

Separately, please note that "freedom of speech" is a term which refers specifically to the government using force to prevent or compel speech from private citizens. In the context of university student conduct, I'm not aware of any law or court case which impinges on this freedom. Being expelled from a university for your conduct does not qualify as an infringement of your freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is a generic concept.

"The Freedom of Speech," the legal right defined by the constitution only applies to the government because the constitution only applies to the government.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#234

Post by victorhooi » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

frobozz wrote: post #132

victorhooi wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence of this claim (that it's a troll or "doesn't exist"), other than just your assertion that no normal person would do this? I can assure you that I know plenty of young people who would do something like this - heck, I'm a young person (and also a Christian), and whilst I probably wouldn't be brave enough to actually approach a lecturer and voice such thoughts, I am sure that in a moment of wea…

No, I have no evidence at all. It's just my assertion. Would you really attend a sermon at the chapel of either your own chosen faith or someone else's and lodge a complaint that the cleric's commentary on love made you feel bad for not showing love? What, exactly, would motivate you to do such a thing? Surely, in the context of a religious sermon, either you're a believer and you should feel bad for not obeying the…

It's rarely that black and white.

Sure, there are things we know we should do - whether because of familial duties, social duties, or as in this case, our belief system, or our religion/creed.

Then there are the things we want to do.

Sure, we may know they're wrong, or know we'll regret them afterwards - but that's not to say we weren't tempted.

And the human mind is wonderful at trying to justify doing "bad" things (where bad is whatever your own faith/belief system is). So I may be like, I'm a awesome Christian, I'm going to attend bible college, then when I get there, I hear a sermon that strikes a nerve and reveals some sin that I'm committing - I may try to justify myself, by saying, well, that doesn't really apply to me because of XYZ, or I may be like, that lecturer has it out for me, why is he targetting me when there's so many other sinners, I'm going to have a word with him! etc.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#235

Post by DanBC » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #84

givinguflac wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting people should not learn to cope with uncomfortable ideas? This is a pretty ridiculous comment you're making here. Freedom of speech and expression has, is, and always will be more important than one's personal comfort. That said, these people are just as free to voice these small minded, selfish complaints as I am to ignore them.

> Are you suggesting people should not learn to cope with uncomfortable ideas? No one is arguing for this.

While I tend to agree with you there are a bunch of things that are not being taught because students have said their feelings are important.

Suicide dropped from sociology lessons: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/15/suicide-dro...

(A-level students are 16 to 18 years old)

I agree that teaching suicide to children is going to be difficult, and that most of the reason is about actual harm, not feelings - the increased risk of death or harm to the students from the Wurther Effect or stigmatising views.

But all of that can be worked around. You provide a mix of comprehensive support of different types to students; you promote a culture of inclusion an sharing in that room.

Suicide is really important. It's the leading cause of death of men aged between 15 and 49 in the UK. Rates are increasing. NHS cuts mean it's harder to get good quality support. Appropriately talking about suicide probably doesn't raise risk, and may well lower risk.

So, it's a shame that this topic got cut from the syllabus.

There are other examples in this thread of law students not learning about rape law because it's too distressing to hear.

That shows a misunderstanding of what PTSD survivors want when they talk about trigger warnings. The point is not "I should be able to live my life and avoid every mention of this thing that causes me significant distress", but "I am currently vulnerable, but getting support, and I need a little bit of warning not so I can avoid the subject, but so that I can make sure I have the little bit of extra support I need to keep me safe".

However: the people on the other side are mostly fucking hateful cunts who scream "What about my freedom of speech?" while seeking to silence the people they're screaming at.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#236

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:05 PM UTC

whatok wrote: post #89

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think it's only been the last few years? It's always existed. The internet allows people to now convene to discuss these issues and establish acceptable behaviors.

I don't know how much actual discussion (vs preaching to the choir) occurs on the internet when anyone with a remotely differing view is immediately told that they are wrong for not agreeing 100% and shortly after has a Twitter mob doxing them.

It seems there isn't a twitter mob doxing you right now for having this view.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#237

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:05 PM UTC

whatok wrote: post #89

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think it's only been the last few years? It's always existed. The internet allows people to now convene to discuss these issues and establish acceptable behaviors.

I don't know how much actual discussion (vs preaching to the choir) occurs on the internet when anyone with a remotely differing view is immediately told that they are wrong for not agreeing 100% and shortly after has a Twitter mob doxing them.

[deleted]

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#238

Post by sukulaku » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:05 PM UTC

sago wrote: post #6

I think the world would be better if, before you're allowed to respond to someone being wrong, you have to first be able to express their position in a way that they agree represents their view. Because 'political correctness' isn't the cancer at the heart of social politics, it is straw-manning. On both sides of every issue. I'd be surprised, perhaps even amazed, if Dr Piper had represented the complaint in any way…

> before you're allowed to respond to someone being wrong, you have to first be able to express their position in a way that they agree represents their view

While we're at it, let's stipulate that everyone is only allowed to be honest and logical and to base their reasoning on valid premises! :)

It's a nice thought, at least at first glance, but it's just not going to happen.

Besides, the real problem with debates is actually willful dishonesty.

There are vast hordes of sociopaths playing games and overcomplicating things to no end, arguing for positions they don't actually hold, and basically just preventing discussions from ever getting anywhere.

The smart ones are like firehoses of sophistry and misdirection, the dumb ones just (fake-)rage and call people names, and I guess somewhere in between you'll find militant feminists and race baiters and people calling for "safe spaces" and whatever nonsense they come up with.

Some sociopaths have come up with a fun new game: trying to convince people that the earth is actually flat. Yes, sadly that's actually a thing. Look them up on YouTube or something.

But these "people" are the real reason why we can't seem to have a reasonable discussion on anything.

Apparently it's enjoyable for them to fuck everything up, and to prevent mankind's progress towards enlightenment as best they can.

That seems like self-destructive behaviour, but they do it anyway. A bunch of them will see this post, but not one will sincerely help us understand.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#239

Post by fixermark » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:06 PM UTC

vdaniuk wrote: post #215

vixen99 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? University still remains a place for adults. All sorts of odd laws and regulations pertain to institutions and other organizations notwithstanding.

University remains a place for adults who are not legally recognized as adults but are expected to fully act as adults. So consistent, much logic.

You're conflating a binary with a continuum.

The dominant American culture is not one with a single consistently-applied rite of passage to adulthood. Over about a decade, people go though multiple transitions (age of majority, voting age, drinking age---heck, a lot of people even recognize the age at which rental car companies stop applying a "You're probably a dangerous driver" surcharge, at 25 years old).

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#240

Post by JoshuaJB » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 3:06 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #27

Yet another post for HN to one-up each other decrying the "PC culture" with plenty of "kids these days" rants, while completely avoiding taking the charitable position and putting ourselves in their shoes. The amount of hypocrisy that comes with the claims that these students should "learn to cope with uncomfortable ideas" is staggering. Guess what: these students are presenting us with an "uncomfortable idea" and th…

> with plenty of "kids these days" rants

I'm a student at a top 4 year university, and I find the lack of student backbone nauseating. The current trends in university culture go entirely counter to the reasons that we have higher education. Instead of encouraging expression, our culture deafens it with its constant concern towards avoiding offence.