This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University • Hacker News Board

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#131

Post by voyou » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

ucaetano wrote: post #12

"Oklahoma Wesleyan is not a “safe place”, but rather, a place to learn" Exactly, I don't get why people are trying to make universities, workplaces, clubs, or anywhere else "safe places". They should not be safe places, they should be places where you feel confronted, challenged and threatened by different ideas and points of view.

Universities shouldn't be safe spaces, I quite agree. That's why I'm so glad my alma mater had packs of lions roaming the campus.

Obviously there are all kinds of things we do to ensure that universities are safe in different ways, and we find ways to try and ensure this safety doesn't interfere too much with learning. Why shouldn't this concern for safety extend to the mental health of students? Chanting "universities are not safe spaces" is a way of avoiding thinking about what kinds of safety we already provide or could provide, and how we can combine these kinds of safety with the challenging education that everyone recognizes is an important part of higher education.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#132

Post by frobozz » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:20 PM UTC

victorhooi wrote: post #71

frobozz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Either the complainant is a troll, or doesn't exist. No normal person would attend a sermon at the chapel of a given faith, and complain that the sermon victimises them for being a poor practitioner of that faith. This is doubly true when its about something universal like love, rather than how well you practice some specific ritual.

Do you have any evidence of this claim (that it's a troll or "doesn't exist"), other than just your assertion that no normal person would do this? I can assure you that I know plenty of young people who would do something like this - heck, I'm a young person (and also a Christian), and whilst I probably wouldn't be brave enough to actually approach a lecturer and voice such thoughts, I am sure that in a moment of wea…

No, I have no evidence at all. It's just my assertion.

Would you really attend a sermon at the chapel of either your own chosen faith or someone else's and lodge a complaint that the cleric's commentary on love made you feel bad for not showing love? What, exactly, would motivate you to do such a thing?

Surely, in the context of a religious sermon, either you're a believer and you should feel bad for not obeying the precepts, or you're not and it's all irrelevant?

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#133

Post by venomsnake » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:20 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #118

venomsnake wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, if the sermon was all about how gay people are going to hell, and that made a student uncomfortable, that's not because the student is a bad person. That's because it was a terrible sermon. Well, no - the proper response to that is not whining but saying: "Since in hell are probably also Freddie Mercury, Voltaire and Oscar Wilde (and probably Mark Twain) - do I strictly have to be gay to go there or ar…

Why would you be at that university if you plan on mocking their beliefs?

Their school cafeteria may be great. I am also not mocking their beliefs, but the beliefs of a single person with authority.

Generally speaking people need more mocking in their lives. For a long time the only people that could speak truth to power were the jesters. No matter if the power is the pope that could condemn to eternal afterlife in hell or a BreitBart/Jezebel writer that could unleash an internet pitchfork mob on you - you are obligated to take them down a notch whenever you can. Jokes are most efficient.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#134

Post by ikeboy » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #85

This is really fantastic. While I don't agree with religion in university (but if it works for you great!) I completely agree with the gist of her argument. Students are coddled too much. If you're not uncomfortable then you're not paying attention. If you need "trigger warnings" or "safe spaces" at a university then you're not ready for university, or at the very least, you have a lot of growing up to do. This may s…

The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not".

This article says "I am, but it's okay, get used to it". There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine says that everyone is bad and should feel guilty all the time.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#135

Post by lagadu » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #15

lagadu wrote: post #3

I find it baffling that there are people, in the real world, who somehow think that for unexplained reasons they have the right to not be offended or be made to feel uncomfortable. Somehow they believe that their feelings are the responsibility of everyone else.

That's a strawman. Even the folks screaming at their residence hall master at Yale didn't assert an abstract "right not to be offended." Their beef was about an institution they pay money to not doing enough to police the conduct of other members of that institution. What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out…

I'm not American, I've no idea what happened at Yale. A quick googling showed this[1]: was that it?

[1]http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/11/07/yale_stude...

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#136

Post by jorgeleo » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

jorgeleo wrote: post #46

jorgeleo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The REAL strawman is: "What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world."

For some reason it is not letting me reply to the answer. Anyway: Definition of the strawman argument: "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man ) The original article is put in a very specific context: a s…

and I am guessing that the negative points are from people that got offended by my comment

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#137

Post by JackdawX » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

maaku wrote: post #21

lagadu wrote: post #3

I find it baffling that there are people, in the real world, who somehow think that for unexplained reasons they have the right to not be offended or be made to feel uncomfortable. Somehow they believe that their feelings are the responsibility of everyone else.

While I sympathize with your viewpoint, perhaps I can shed some clarity on the other side. The concern is not feelings getting hurt, but rather physical security as a person of minority status. This is something that a white heterosexual middle-class male (such as myself) can probably never fully appreciate, but I try to sympathize. Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back yo…

> Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back you carried at all times in mixed-race race situations the possibility of being assaulted without recourse or lynched, or in present times accused and convicted of a crime you didn't commit or shot on sight for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

> Imagine what it is like to be Jewish and have 85% of your relatives systematically wiped out in living memory.

I think you're taking a devils advocate position here, but this is interesting if true. I'm not sure how the actions of people 60-80 years ago should affect how we view ~20-year-olds today? For example, how is the behaviour of white germans in 1945 related to white americans or british in either 1945 or 2015? I think we were on the opposite side of that war.

As for black lynchings in the american south, again this is a localised issue. But lets say your university is in an area where it happened, how likely is it that someones grandfather was involved in a lynching? Pretty small. But even if they were, should someone today be associated with their grandparents criminal behavior? I don't see how.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#138

Post by vdaniuk » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

Juliate wrote: post #36

icebraining wrote: post #27

Yet another post for HN to one-up each other decrying the "PC culture" with plenty of "kids these days" rants, while completely avoiding taking the charitable position and putting ourselves in their shoes. The amount of hypocrisy that comes with the claims that these students should "learn to cope with uncomfortable ideas" is staggering. Guess what: these students are presenting us with an "uncomfortable idea" and th…

The idea that people's feelings should come first (especially before truth/understanding of reality) is not uncomfortable, but a dangerous, misleading, childish posture. University is for adults, not toddlers.

>University is for adults, not toddlers.

Oh really, so university students are able to consume alcohol, right?

edit:

noun: adult;

- a person who is fully grown or developed.

- a person who has reached the age of majority.

edit 2:

"Longitudinal neuroimaging studies demonstrate that the adolescent brain continues to mature well into the 20s. This has prompted intense interest in linking neuromaturation to maturity of judgment."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#139

Post by HelloNurse » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

frobozz wrote: post #61

sago wrote: post #6

I think the world would be better if, before you're allowed to respond to someone being wrong, you have to first be able to express their position in a way that they agree represents their view. Because 'political correctness' isn't the cancer at the heart of social politics, it is straw-manning. On both sides of every issue. I'd be surprised, perhaps even amazed, if Dr Piper had represented the complaint in any way…

Indeed. Either the complainant is a troll, or doesn't exist. No normal person would attend a sermon at the chapel of a given faith, and complain that the sermon victimises them for being a poor practitioner of that faith. This is doubly true when its about something universal like love, rather than how well you practice some specific ritual.

No normal person. University students are abnormal until proved otherwise.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#140

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:22 PM UTC

Regardless of the content, it seems to me that if someone came forward to complain to you, the time and place to deliver the message you had in response was when they came forward with the complaint. Yeah, it's a university, not a daycare, and as such a direct adult dialogue about the issue should be expected. A public letter like this from the university President is appropriate for a broad issue that goes beyond someone raising a personal complaint (which this letter provides no hint of), such as a public controversy directed at the university.

Given the scenario the letter itself lays out, the act of responding by such a public letter is at least as childish, thin-skinned, and inappropriate for a university environment where all participants (especially the administration) are supposed to be adults as the complaint it describes.

And given the specific subject of the complaint and response, it really sounds like the author could do with some of their own reflection on 1 Cor 13:4-5. As well as Gal 6:1 and Lk 6:42.

If you want to instill virtue, it is far more important to exhibit it than it is to lecture about it, though the latter has its place.