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Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

eff.org

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Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples of why you think the EFF is cynical? As a frequent donor, I would like another perspective.

While I am not the OP (and support all of their agenda) - any organization that is payed to hold certain position becomes cynical because it is literally their job to spin any event into something that fits their agenda. It is the nature of the beast.

Are they payed merely to hold certain positions or to take action (legal challenges, software dev, spread awareness) on issues that are important to many of us?

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#52
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

I could be wrong on the facts here as I have not been following the story closely, but I believe that the unencrypted SMS found on a phone outside the Batcalan helped lead police to St. Denis where they killed the mastermind and several other terrorists and likely prevented a further attack. Between St. Denis and the raids in Belgium, it seems like the police likely (1) already knew a lot about many of the people involved and/or (2) were able to quickly piece together clues, both of which were probably aided by the ability to monitor digital communications. Look also at the number of targeted killings of terrorists over recent years (e.g. Jihadi John) which I would assume were aided by digital monitoring.

And the terrorists are aware of the above and are now training their followers to use apps like Telegram.

With 7 billion people in this world, preventing every single attack by mass surveillance alone is impossible. But I think its naive to believe that surveillance is not helpful to law enforcement or that the pro surveillance crowd is motivated by some sort of ulterior motive to blackmail people. If you are the head of the CIA or NYPD, you probably spend a lot of your time genuinely worrying about letting an attack happen on your watch and you would be strongly inclined to fight for every tool you can get.

The question is whether the benefits of dragnet surveillance and weakening encryption outweigh the negatives, and like others here, I'm inclined to think they do not.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And that did nothing to stop a much larger, more complex attack" Perhaps, but I think the best way to measure the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the program is not the number of attacks that have slipped through, but the proportion of those that were prevented compared to those that slipped through.

This is impossible. One of the problems with the blatant misuse of forecasting is governments using it it to compare outrageous black swan futures against real history. It leads to claiming that "spying on everyone 24/7 to prevent an infinite number of terror attacks" is in everyones interest. The reality is that a limited number of black-swan terror attacks is actually a minimal cost compared to destroying social fa…

For now it seems that terrorist attacks made more impact on social fabric than US or French surveillance.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#54
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

I could be wrong on the facts here as I have not been following the story closely, but I believe that the unencrypted SMS found on a phone outside the Batcalan helped lead police to St. Denis where they killed the mastermind and several other terrorists and likely prevented a further attack. Between St. Denis and the raids in Belgium, it seems like the police likely (1) already knew a lot about many of the people inv…

Jaron Lanier writes about this problem in "Who Owns The Future" and calls it the Siren Server. People seem to continually mistake the mass collection of data and its generic processing with actual actionable intelligence. What you really end up with is a mass of data that has no meaning or function unless you already have an inclination where to look.

That inclination is likely going to fall along the lines of your biases unless its in direct relation to an already occurred or ongoing event.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#55
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

No France did not ramped up their surveillance because the law has just been voted few days before the attack.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#56
post #12

Does this EFF post say anything new, or is it voted to the top of the site because (a) anti-surveillance and (b) EFF? I find EFF to be a deeply cynical organization, even though I for the most part share their policy objectives.

As a very deeply cynical individual myself, I like that EFF is not quite cynical enough to completely give up on trying to steer politics away from the slippery slope into 1984-style dystopia.

That one is pretty close to the slippery slopes that lead into Brave New World-style dystopia, Brazil-style dystopia, Walden Two-style dystopia, Atlas Shrugged-style dystopia, and Snow Crash-style dystopia.

We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, and doubly-damned if we do it half-assed.

So good for the EFF, and their noble effort to steer the train.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#57
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's their angle: use the panopticon to get blackmail material on 100% of people, then anyone who is inconvenient or needs to be controlled can be dealt with painlessly. Right, France is a totalitarian government, no proof necessary. You cannot fight nonsense with nonsense.

I didn't say that they were totalitarian, merely that they had taken a step in that direction. Powers are abused, 100% of the time, even if you don't find out. Steps against free society add up.

Terrorist violences is also against free society.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#58
post #2

Just a reminder, there is no evidence that the Paris attackers used any kind of encryption. After Endless Demonization Of Encryption, Police Find Paris Attackers Coordinated Via Unencrypted SMS: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after...

ISIS use the Telegram app on their smartphone or on their laptop with BlueStacks to communicate as shown in this report where a journalist try to become an ISIS recruit :

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/replay-magazine/france-2/envoye-s...

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#59
post #47

Notice we don't see calls for more surveillance after domestic shootings/terrorism. Well, body cams for police is maybe an exception. But schools, churches, and movie theaters get shot up weekly. I think the illusion that somehow the surveillance apparatus filters out white people and only focuses on terrorism lets Americans feel okay with it. Also I don't think most people realize how almost every action and thought…

> Notice we don't see calls for more surveillance after domestic shootings/terrorism.

I think the reasoning is that in domestic school/church/theater shootings, the perpetrator isn't engaged in long communications (and receiving instructions from) a leadership group.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#60
It would be pretty impressive if an algo existed which found most of the terrorists with relatively few false positives.

If you look at a population in the hundreds of millions and the set of terrorists planning an attack, maybe in the dozens (?), you need a pretty powerful test if you're to inconvenience fewer terrorists than ordinary people.

And that doesn't even touch on the issue of whether it's right to do so if it works.

Has anyone here worked on similar identification algorithms? The closest I can think of is a friend of mine who markets drugs for extremely rare conditions. But then those people tend not to be hiding and can be approached via search keywords.

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