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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free, the council of Nicosia was a similar attempt at making Christianity more internally consistent and in a way the Bible itself already was a re-write, think of it as Judaism 2.0 and it starts to make a lot more sense. But typically such a movement originates from within the religion and I highly doubt it can be imposed from outside. Note that most religious text are 'tamper proof' in that they contain little…

> A bit further down that road and we'll be burning books. I'm not calling for aggressively imposing a structure change upon people, I'm calling for people who call themselves moderates or progressives to formally recognize their progressiveness by explicitly altering their holy text.

> I'm calling for people who call themselves moderates or progressives to formally recognize their progressiveness by explicitly altering their holy text.

If their understanding of the meaning of their religion and its text is already moderate or progressive, why should they modify it (especially when part of their understanding is that it cannot be modified?)

The Christian Bible has some things in it that support shockingly regressive interpretations, and which some Christians apply in exactly that manner. There isn't pressure on moderate or progressive Christians to change the text of the Bible in response to that. Why should it be different for Muslims?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We define away the problem. White people shooting others is not usually considered terrorism (such as a mass shooting committed by a white person). Terrorism is used to label actions by people you don't like. Some politicians even make statements calling the president a terrorist because he does something they don't like. We don't call it terrorism when the American government kidnapped people, took them to other cou…

Mass murder and terrorism are not the same thing. Terrorism requires some political objective. The only the Charleston church shooting would meet that definition.

Most mass murderers' manifestos are political in nature. Whether anyone pays attention or remembers is pretty much the defining characteristic between calling one event mass murder versus calling it terrorism.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of Godwinning this thread, that's something I read in some old documents too. That time it didn't work.

In the context of human rights and xenophobic behavior, please don't censor yourself in order to not violate some stupid Internet meme. The nazis represent an anti-pattern for society we should always remember. After all in each of us there's always potential for evil, all it takes is a capable leader to channel that potential to some common purpose that blurs our ethics.

Ok, so let me spell it out then: Geert Wilders is seen by a surprisingly large number of people who really should know better as a 'great leader' and a 'strong man' who will lead us out of this mess. The biggest thing on 'our side' is that NL is a crappy little country and that we don't have a functioning army (or at least, not a very large one) due to budget cuts over the last couple of years. But Mr. Wilders is taking a lot of leaves out of the playbook of Mr. Hitler, who - just to remind you - was also voted into power. He's positioning himself as the solution to a problem, a problem that has been on the minds of many. The idea that once in power he won't be quite as bad is hilarious, he's been playing his cards very close to his chest, runs his 'party' as a one man show with a puppet faction backing him up in the chambers of parliament and will no doubt make at least an attempt to deliver. At a minimum his plans will set NL back about 25 years in international relations, his policies are strongly isolationist (return to the guilder, close the borders, withdraw from various treaties and so on) and his stance on freedom of religion and such will make NL the laughingstock of the EU at best and a pariah at worst. Once NL is successfully isolated from the influence of the rest of the EU I expect him to reveal his real playbook. Whatever it is it can't be much good given what we've seen to date.

This is a very scared, very scary person who is pushing every emotional button available with his policies and rhetoric who has the backing of a much too large segment of the country already. If you had told me 25 years ago that this would happen in NL I would not have believed you but I'm witnessing it. This whole thing started with the murder of a guy called Pim Fortuyn, the previous populist (who at least made some sense some of the time), he would have done some damage but not enough to seriously threaten the country. The segment woken up by the voice of Fortuyn was then handily co-opted by Wilders, who is now in an excellent position to put his play-book into action. It's super scary to watch friends and even relatives succumb to this idiots words and to hear his words being echoed by people dear to you.

It's like watching a re-run of Germany, ca. 1935, and then too people were saying 'Oh, it won't be that bad, he's just going to wake up when he actually has power' and we all know how that one ended.

Again, fortunately, NL is a crappy little country, but don't forget that Hitler came from Austria, not from Germany to begin with, who knows what his plans are. There is a large body of similar minded people in Belgium, and a much larger one still in France led by one Marine Le Pen. You can bet they're planning some sort of collaboration (too early to call it an anschluss) once they have managed to capture some power.

It's like watching the periscope of a submarine moving through a flotilla of merchant boats.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#664
post #298

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> Yes indeed, but you don't find too many people trying to actually behead or stone people to death based on the Old Testament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_%28United_States%2... Funny that when it's Christian fundamentalism, it's the perpretrator fault, but when it's Muslim fundamentalism, it's Islam fault... Yes, ISIS/Daesh is as removed from mains…

Still pales in comparison to the number of currently active Islamic terrorist organizations around the world. Just take a look at this list[0] and see for yourself how many of them are Islamic and how many are not [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_g...

Definitely not denying it. I think the problem is compounded by the decentralized nature of Sunni Islam, leading to a multitude of autonomous and uncontrollable groups... That and the availability of funding from the gulf states...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#665
post #658

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>They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination. Bullshit. The people who are destroying ancient statues and slaughtering other Muslims didn't sign up for some grand scheme of bringing down the west after a reasoned argument. They signed up because they are violent psychopaths and they were given an avenue to do all of the fucked up things tha…

> They signed up because they are violent psychopaths and they were given an avenue to do all of the fucked up things that struck their fancy. If they signed up because of this, boy I wouldn't want to be in their shoes once they realize their mistake! Judging by everything I read, ISIS rulers enforce a strict Sharia law, with patrols making sure everyone is using the correct dress code. I've also seen a documentary w…

Quite a few of them are murdered by ISIS within the first couple of days once they wake up and smell the roses. The remainder then dances to the tunes of their new masters.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#666

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html I am not sure how valid these translations are, but there seem to be a lot of incendiary passages in the Quran, how do we reconcile these view points with modern society. I also understand that old testament (I am not christian) is just as bad but I was under assumption that the old testament was a carry over from Christianities Jewish roots, and the new testa…

> I also understand that old testament (I am not christian) is just as bad but I was under assumption that the old testament was a carry over from Christianities Jewish roots, and the new testament supersedes it?

Christian differ on the effect of the NT on the OT, since the NT contains both material that seems on the simplest reading to endorse the OT law in full, material which seems on the simplest reading to provide different and simpler rules than those in the OT law, and material which seems on the simplest reading to explicitly limit the application of most OT laws.

In practice, you end up with a whole spectrum of ideologies among Christians (and the same is true of Muslims.)

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#667
post #458
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course! Keep in mind that I'm just an average Muslim, so I might not be able to address all of your questions.

That's great, because one of the things I wonder most is what faith is like in day to day experience. I'll send you an email :)

You could also check out r/islam and post there for a wider audience.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#668
post #616

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> Breivik, unless I'm wrong about it, was not part of a movement trying to dominate the world and install a Christian kingdom, so ISIS differs from the white "movement" in that regard. The biggest difference is - for want of a better word and I'm really sorry about using that term in the current context - because of their ability to execute. They would if they could, they just can't.

>" They would if they could, they just can't. " And in this simplistic scenario, why would you posit is the reason they "can't"?

Because the movement is comparatively small, does not have a lot of funds and is under relatively close scrutiny already. But in every EU country it is present, in every EU country there are wanna-be Breiviks. The Norwegians also did a supremely good job of not letting him become either a martyr or an inspiration.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#669
post #349
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breivik wrote a manifesto claiming he was doing it to support Christianity. And yet people don't call him a Christian terrorist.

Breivik was a bit of a one off. Sadly Islamic terrorism seems more frequent.

not at all a one off

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#670
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's a complete cop out. Can you come up with any definition of "terrorist" where significant numbers of the one billion Chinese are commiting terrorist atrocities abroad, for example?

No, but it would be absolutely trivial to sketch the situation from a point of view where Bush, Blair and whole bunch of others would be seen as the terrorist masterminds causing the deaths of untold numbers of civilians. All in the name of the good of course, which is exactly what makes them just as bad as IS in that respect. They all actually believe they are doing the right thing. And that's a discussion that has…

You mean value-system. The difference to believing is that you don't have to be told to feel like you know.
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