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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#191
post #2

Isn't it sad that this has to be said at all? "Hey, not every adherent of a religion supports killing innocent people of a different religion". It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade.

Well, literal Islam is unfortunately a political ideology masquerading as a religion. You can't separate the politics from the "spirituals" in literal Islam. The more you're drawn to the literal flavor of religion, the more you are corrupted by the ideological views of the founder of Islam and his early followers and disciples i.e. the expansionism, imperialism, triumphalism ...etc

Does this mean that there's no good Muslims out there?

Of course not, there's plenty of them but the underlying problem is that the contemporary mainstream Sunni Islam has shifted from left to right by the early 70s thanks to the increasing influence of the Saudi petrodollar and the relentless exporting of the wahabist cultural product to predominantly Sunni Muslim countries and thus hard-line teachings of Sunni Islam became the norm and dominated the public sphere and one of its poisonous fruits sadly infected Paris over the weekend.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Even fundamentalist Christians don't have divine commandments to kill apostates. Nor do atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or Jews (well, they do, but it hasn't been in force since the Exile.) This is a false equivalency.

Funny though, how the fundamentalists christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians. I really dislike this, "but xtians are less violent than muslims because they have a mandate to kill apostates" approach, because it ignores so much of the reality. Not to mention, without diving into old/new testament theology, that there are plenty of commands to kill in the bible, even of unbeleivers…

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/27/us-mideast-crisis-...

World | Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:36pm EDT Related: WORLD, UNITED NATIONS, FRANCE, SYRIA France launches air strikes against Islamic State in Syria UNITED NATIONS/PARIS | BY JOHN IRISH AND DOMINIQUE VIDALON

France said on Sunday it launched its first air strikes in Syria, destroying an Islamic State training camp in the east of the country to prevent the group from carrying out attacks against French interests and to protect Syrian civilians.

France had until now only struck Islamic State targets in neighboring Iraq, carrying out just 3 percent of air strikes in an offensive on the group by a U.S.-led coalition. France has also provided limited logistical support to Syrian rebels it considers moderate, including Kurds.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's my sincerest hope that French troops will be deployed to Syria in the near future This kind of thinking is exactly why Mid-east is in its current state and that is exactly the reason why ISIS was born. ISIS high command mainly consists of Iraqi ex-officers, who were rendered jobless and aimless by USA's 'liberation' attempt. Al-Qaida was a result of a 'liberation' attempt by Soviets and then consequently anoth…

> This kind of thinking is exactly why Mid-east is in its current state and that is exactly the reason why ISIS was born. ISIS was born out of the Salafist/Wahhabi ideology that the Saudi state has been exporting from the beginning of its existence. This is why terrorism is almost the exclusive domain of this one sect. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism... As another poster said, if every di…

> The government of Mali asked for foreign military help to re-take the north. [1]

Intervening and waging proxy wars in the middle-east sent the message that sovereignty is relative and only applies to countries with "appropriate" views, hence the hate against west.

Still I wouldn't call Mali a stable country as they are constantly plagued by terrorist attacks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Mali_conflict

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And therein lies the rub no? If we concentrate on the words in a book that will never disappear how do you propose we get out of this mess? And if Christianity could - to some extent - overcome the limitations of the bible how can we assist Islam? Surely not by attempting to polarize.

Why not? How about we fork the Qur'an like it were source code, delete the parts about killing people for their beliefs, add in some more commandments such as "don't rape, don't discriminate, be nice to everybody. It's ok if you don't literally believe that Allah exists." etc etc. Then we can rename it to Islam2 or Progressive Islam, or something like that. Everybody wins. I'm pretty sure that's already been done wit…

Feel free, the council of Nicosia was a similar attempt at making Christianity more internally consistent and in a way the Bible itself already was a re-write, think of it as Judaism 2.0 and it starts to make a lot more sense.

But typically such a movement originates from within the religion and I highly doubt it can be imposed from outside. Note that most religious text are 'tamper proof' in that they contain little bits about how alteration of the text is forbidden, after all, who is qualified to modify the word of God except for God himself/herself.

Also note that the Qur'an in its current form will be alive and well in the heads of all those who remember it because they've been memorizing part or even all of it. A bit further down that road and we'll be burning books.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#195
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny though, how the fundamentalists christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians. I really dislike this, "but xtians are less violent than muslims because they have a mandate to kill apostates" approach, because it ignores so much of the reality. Not to mention, without diving into old/new testament theology, that there are plenty of commands to kill in the bible, even of unbeleivers…

christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians Undoubtedly, but important questions about the ethics of war aren't usually based upon the body count. They're based upon initiation of force, hostility, ability to negotiate peace, treatment of captives, willingness to adhere to treaties, etc.

This is true, but Im not talking about the abstract ethics of nation state war, iIm talking about the practical reality for people on the ground, on all sides. Not to mention there seems to be quite a one sided approach to such issues given Western influence on international law and related bodies. Iraq is a good example where we did just about none of those things you mention.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#196
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hate that Pew Survey. It polls people from some of the most culturally conservative countries and then uses that to make assertions about Islam. I wish Pew had interviewed Christians in the same countries at the same time and asked them what they thought should be done to homosexuals. It would be interesting to see what we could glean about Christianity.

Make no mistake, I'm not a fan of 'conservative' Christianity. As I mentioned elsewhere, the problems are ideologies, in particular those that promote totalitarianism and unreason - whether or not they are religious in nature is incidental to me. However, note that no beheadings have been staged in Vatican City in recent years.

> However, note that no beheadings have been staged in Vatican City in recent years.

True, but I think it's more complex than that.

First, I do not think the Vatican automatically represents the most conservative brand of Christianity; not at all times, anyway. Not now, for example. Second, beheadings seem rightfully barbaric and horrendous to us, but as terrible as they are, I think their impact is superficial in a way (though obviously not to their victims, and please make no mistake: I do not wish to live in a country that beheads people!). ISIS beheadings are a matter of form, a propaganda tool; a way to shock the West into action, and the local population into compliance.

But as for actual damage, compare their beheadings with the damage caused by some Christian leaders of First World countries who have been bombing cities in the Middle East and causing a lot of deaths. These conservative Christians sometimes describe themselves as "born again", surround themselves with religious phraseology, describe their wars as Crusades and name them with Biblical sounding names (Righteous Fury, Infinite Justice, etc, etc), feel their countries have a God-given right to shape the world as they see fit. Wouldn't people living in a city bombed by a Western country consider themselves the victims of Western religious zealots?

And if, say, we know Obama and Bush are NOT the same, are we not making the mistake of thinking every bellicose Muslim is exactly the same terrorist fundamentalist that cannot be reasoned with and must be exterminated? Maybe there are shades of gray with them, just like it happens in the West?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#197

Wow, how brave he is. Once a long time a go I was in Aleppo. Such a nice town. Terrible how much destruction has happened. 'Normal countries' should help. I.e. fight a war against ISIS, kill them and rebuild Syria. Including new government (under UN stewardship).

> kill them and rebuild Syria. Including new government (under UN stewardship).

Because that has worked so well in the (recent) past?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#198
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I'm not the OP I'll happily give my thoughts as a not very good Anglican - who embodies the "great Anglican fudge". 1. Offended no. I'll think you're rather rude, the same as if I wrote $manifestDestiny = false. If you know someone you can have banter with them. 2. IT has all sorts of articles of faith. vi versus emacs, I'm weird as I like nano. Religion is a way of living your life, my code is in no way affec…

> As a counter-point let me ask a non-religious person, > what makes an act good? You might be interested in reading The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris for an in-depth start at an answer to that question. It's a secular look at morality and how we can reason about morality without a foundation of unscientific ideas (e.g. the existence of a deity). In essence it makes the point that the religious idea of morality drive…

> He essentially defines an act as "good" if it's a net increase in human happiness and well-being

That seems a very poor and weak definition.

1. It focuses on human as only a human can be happy.

2. net increase is relative, so this is relative to the author's life/view of the world.

3. Well-being doesn't mean anything. Does he defines it too?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny though, how the fundamentalists christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians. I really dislike this, "but xtians are less violent than muslims because they have a mandate to kill apostates" approach, because it ignores so much of the reality. Not to mention, without diving into old/new testament theology, that there are plenty of commands to kill in the bible, even of unbeleivers…

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/27/us-mideast-crisis-... World | Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:36pm EDT Related: WORLD, UNITED NATIONS, FRANCE, SYRIA France launches air strikes against Islamic State in Syria UNITED NATIONS/PARIS | BY JOHN IRISH AND DOMINIQUE VIDALON France said on Sunday it launched its first air strikes in Syria, destroying an Islamic State training camp in the east of the country to prevent the group…

Intersting, thanks for the link, but it doesnt really answer the question of exactly how many strikes did it participate in on Syria, and what were the death tolls? (Numbers, not percentages)
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