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The War ISIS Wants

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191–200 of 228 posts

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of analogy is not to say that two things are similar in every way.

Except the two groups are starkly different in every way but irredentist and domineering ideology that the analogy is useless.

Csallen is right: the point of the metaphor is that we're currently engaged in a knee-jerk pacifist reduction, and that it's not the first time we (the French) have done that in recent history.

You can tell me we learned our lesson during WWII, but that's just a proclamation of faith.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#192
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has to start from the ground, with 'militant moderate Muslims' willing to show people another way; one that does not involve in slavery, beheadings, suicide bombings, and crucifixion. Problem with this is that the most prominent moderate Islamist organization, the Muslim Brotherhood, was utterly smashed by the military counter-coup in Egypt. To many Islamists, it seemed to prove that a political route to power w…

> Though I agree that we have to bridge the gap. The us vs. them rhetoric is toxic. Indeed. However, it is "Western culture vs ISIS". The other part is that it's also "Other Muslims vs ISIS" along with "Muslim countries vs ISIS". ISIS dictates that they are indeed bent for world domination, as much absurd as that seems. But ISIS acts like Anonymous with a country. Yeah, you can nuke the land and kill millions of peop…

Not totally true. They need training camps, and food for their army, they need money (what also implies oil), and they need some infrastructure for their propaganda.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#193

Have you read George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf? I think it gets to the heart of why ISIS is so popular. "Also [Hitler] has grasped the falsity of the hedonistic attitude to life. Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all "progressive" thought, has assumed tacitly that human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain... Hitler, because in his joyless mind he feels it with…

Hitler was one of the greatest public speakers of his time. He didn't advertise how horrible things would be to the people of Germany, he promised them that he was going to perfect their country with a master race. The way he presented things and the outlook he gave are why people followed him, not because he promised them destruction.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are answers: ISIS just attacked NATO -- definitely Darwin award material. NATO can "wipe the desert clean" in less than an hour anytime NATO is willing to do what ISIS does -- create civilian casualties. By clean , in the ISIS areas, no more buildings, oil infrastructure, vehicles, tents, flocks, camels, or people. None. Then, the end of ISIS and whatever beliefs, determination, goals, history, etc. D…

France isn't a part of NATO, and hasn't been for 50 years. Which is probably one of the reasons they were selected as a target. Armies are good at breaking down nation-states by destroying the opposing military and means of production. Putting the middle east aside, as it's still happening, I think the history of the 20th century aptly demonstrates that organized military force isn't effective in defeating revolution…

> France isn't a part of NATO, and hasn't been for 50 years. Which is probably one of the reasons they were selected as a target.

You're mistaken [0][1][2].

[0] http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That one is on Obama Well, no. Bush had a glorious, golden opportunity in the wake of 9/11 to turn this huge wave of international goodwill into something that could have actually made the world a safer place. Instead, he did precisely what the terrorists hoped he would do - Bush not only invaded Afghanistan, he lied the country into a breathtakingly stupid and pointless war with Iraq, single-handedly destabilizing…

So, are you saying that what Bush started is incorrigible? Perhaps not. If only the politicians have a will to take the right path. Obama clearly doesn't have it.

See also: The Green Lantern Theory of the Presidency. [1]

This is not a get out of jail free card for inaction, but a reminder that just pushing an issue does not create positive action by itself. At this point any action that Obama takes will be resisted by US politicians, perhaps leading to a worse outcome than the status quo.

1. http://www.vox.com/2014/5/20/5732208/the-green-lantern-theor...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are answers: ISIS just attacked NATO -- definitely Darwin award material. NATO can "wipe the desert clean" in less than an hour anytime NATO is willing to do what ISIS does -- create civilian casualties. By clean , in the ISIS areas, no more buildings, oil infrastructure, vehicles, tents, flocks, camels, or people. None. Then, the end of ISIS and whatever beliefs, determination, goals, history, etc. D…

France isn't a part of NATO, and hasn't been for 50 years. Which is probably one of the reasons they were selected as a target. Armies are good at breaking down nation-states by destroying the opposing military and means of production. Putting the middle east aside, as it's still happening, I think the history of the 20th century aptly demonstrates that organized military force isn't effective in defeating revolution…

> France isn't a part of NATO, and hasn't been for 50 years.

Page

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/16/why-nato-probably-wont-help-f...

clearly claims that France is a member of NATO.

> You have to undermine the base of ideology or grievances.

Would be nice. That would be the nice way. For Viet Nam, my position was, and remains, just come home. And now the US and Viet Nam get along fine. We could have gotten along fine starting as soon as the Japanese left -- Viet Nam liked us then, we got rid of the Japanese who had taken over their country and they had helped downed US pilots, and could have liked us continually and more and more to the present. I never did understand why Ho, a dishwasher from Paris, was so eager to get free dinners in Moscow and Peking just to torque off the US.

What you said about Germany did work for a while, and what defeated Germany was mostly just the US, especially the US Eighth air force with B-17s leveling German cities, ones that were at all connected with war production and likely more.

But ISIS is no longer a "revolutionary movement" and, instead, is essentially a nation state. So, I don't recommend occupying them and hanging their leaders from lamp posts. I don't want diplomacy, negotiations, surrender, unconditional surrender, or treaties. We can't settle for their promising to stop their nonsense or even stopping their nonsense. And I don't want to try to occupy them like W did -- that would cost US blood and treasure, and not one drop of blood and not one dime more treasure than it takes to defend the US.

Instead, given their strong culture and many very clear statements, we have to make sure they are no longer able in any sense to pursue their nonsense. At this point, I will pay attention their capabilities, not their statements or behavior, and want to make sure they have no capabilities to inflict harm outside their territories. Sure, in part that would mean that no one, except maybe some boys under 6 or some girls under 10, from the ISIS area is ever permitted to leave.

They are eager to die and to kill us. We can help them die, and without dying ourselves. We don't have to be ashamed of helping them die the way they want.

In particular they must not have the resources or ability to get a nuke bomb. Essentially they have to be sent back to tents, flocks, and camels, tightly controlled, with their oil taken, and that's at least. The only safe way to remove a boot on their necks and just forget about them is, basically, to kill all of them. It's come to that -- they make that fully clear in all their propaganda. So be it.

They would love to light off a nuke in NY harbor, and I'm just 70 miles from there. 'Nuff for me -- defend ourselves.

The only serious tool they have is our reluctance to kill their civilians, which are really just their children and most of their women. They have that tool only due to our extreme, nearly suicidal, generosity. We don't owe them that.

I'm sure that in WWII the US killed a lot of really nice, wonderful civilian people in both Japan and Germany. But, we had to win the war, and we did. And Japan and Germany had killed a lot of really nice, wonderful civilians before we did.

"Nuke" -- ISIS said the wrong word. There are no extenuating grievances, history, or considerations. It's back to tents, flocks, and camels right away or, and likely soon, just "wipe the desert clean".

Saddam said the wrong word -- nuke. ISIS is really slow at learning and really fast to forget.

W was a total fumble bumble, but his sense of responsibility as POTUS to defend the US was correct. I'm sure the next POTUS, either Hillary or any of the Repub candidates, will also take that responsibility seriously. I don't like Hillary, but she is not stupid; I very much don't like Hillary, but she is likely the best informed and brightest in the race; I believe and very much hope she loses, but I am fairly confident that, as part of being a responsible POTUS, and I am sure she has plenty of pride for that, she would be ready, willing, able, and eager to tell the USAF to level the ISIS areas -- wipe the desert clean.

ISIS wants to take their magic carpet ride to Allah, and it's about certain they will. I'm very sorry the ISIS area innocent women and children have to go along for the ride.

A threat of a nuke in a US harbor -- we need to make sure we don't have to worry about that at all, and we can, and I believe that we should and will.

"We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud"; I didn't, and don't, think that statement was appropriate when C. Rice said it, but I believe it's appropriate now. We don't want to wait; the Paris attack was enough for a Pearl Harbor wake up call.

For the ISIS areas, France is fully capable of wiping "the desert clean" in an afternoon -- they better do it.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is only one proper response to this and that is to make damn sure that I laugh religious people out of the room whenever possible." That approach has proven to not work. Didn't you realize that the "religious people" would do the same to you? Their reality is different from yours.

Proven not to work by who? By what? The point is, "their reality" is manifestly, obviously wrong.

So you have ferreted all the gods out of all the gaps in human knowledge? That is an amazing accomplishment!

Bases for belief are weird, even when they are not based on religion. Many mentalities are based on absolutes, it seems you have replaced god with no-god.

I don't think the anti-theist mindset is particularly useful. You cannot use facts to change someone's mind, especially where facts were not used in the first place.

Religion is a largely emotional experience to most people; denying them that experience is just hurtful, not constructive.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are answers: ISIS just attacked NATO -- definitely Darwin award material. NATO can "wipe the desert clean" in less than an hour anytime NATO is willing to do what ISIS does -- create civilian casualties. By clean , in the ISIS areas, no more buildings, oil infrastructure, vehicles, tents, flocks, camels, or people. None. Then, the end of ISIS and whatever beliefs, determination, goals, history, etc. D…

France isn't a part of NATO, and hasn't been for 50 years. Which is probably one of the reasons they were selected as a target. Armies are good at breaking down nation-states by destroying the opposing military and means of production. Putting the middle east aside, as it's still happening, I think the history of the 20th century aptly demonstrates that organized military force isn't effective in defeating revolution…

> France isn't a part of NATO, and hasn't been for 50 years.

France is a NATO member, and has been the whole time NATO has existed. It withdrew from some NATO structures (e.g., the integrated military command) in 1966, but rejoined the integrated military command in 2009.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#199
post #169
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I think he meant other Muslims that aren't/weren't involved with ISIS. Remember, ISIS is still a radical minority, and there are Muslims who don't support ISIS.

If what you are supposing is true, it fails to address what should be done now; should the French increase air attacks on ISIS, abandon their effort, or lead a ground incursion? Over 50% of the population in many Muslim majority states believe that terrorism is at least 'rarely', and over 5% (, which is a large number of people,) believe it is justified 'often'.[1] There are obviously a large number of Muslims who do…

I wasn't addressing what should be done now, I was only correcting your straw man argument that you used to attack the parent poster.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#200
post #199
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what you are supposing is true, it fails to address what should be done now; should the French increase air attacks on ISIS, abandon their effort, or lead a ground incursion? Over 50% of the population in many Muslim majority states believe that terrorism is at least 'rarely', and over 5% (, which is a large number of people,) believe it is justified 'often'.[1] There are obviously a large number of Muslims who do…

I wasn't addressing what should be done now, I was only correcting your straw man argument that you used to attack the parent poster.

I made no straw-man; I would actually like to know what the parent was proposing the French should do. The parent proposed that Westerners should be kind to everyone, but that does not address what should be done about the current problems.
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