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The War ISIS Wants

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Re: The War ISIS Wants

#181

Post by dragonwriter »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #83
return0 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These terrorist groups are becoming a recurring thing though, a failed one is replaced by another. They are aided by technology that allows inflicting powerful hits and of course by money from their patrons. The question is if there is something more than just extremism here, what is the failure of the western secularity to become attractive and engulf immigrants and whether this is phenomenon can spring up on its ow…

"Universal condemnation" is precisely what they're seeking. The more notoriety, the better. Hence, pushing gay men off of buildings and drowning men in cages (with underwater cameras filming). They are seeking street cred, a rep, a mystique of fear. Condemnation doesn't work. What does work is a combination of excellent police work in routing out cells of recruiters and operators, and precise, devastating bombing rai…

> "Universal condemnation" is precisely what they're seeking.

I think they are seeking both selective (that is, among non-Muslims) and poorly focused (at Muslims in general, rather than focused on Daesh in particular) condemnation, rather than "universal condemnation". And they seek that specifically so that the Muslims, who are the population they target to establish dominion over in the form of a Caliphate, will see non-Muslims as a threat (because Muslims become seen by non-Muslims as a threat) against whom Daesh is the only defense, and that the cost of accepting the dominion that Daesh offers is lower than the cost of being outside of it (they also want Muslims to be afraid of defying Daesh, which also makes the cost of accepting dominion less than the cost of rejecting it.)

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#182

Post by Torgo »

liotier wrote: post #119

Want to know what ISIS is up to ? Just take it from their official magazine - it is right there, explicit. The strategy is called "The extinction of the gray zone" - it is about polarizing western society by eliciting islamophobia: "Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes for a place to live in the Khilāfah, as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in W…

Their definition of an apostate Muslim is basically identical to our definition of an assimilated Muslim. Simply being more tolerant may avoid one horn, but gets you gored by the other. They are not dumb, their strategy is more complex than what they lay out in their official publication. Their goal is to put the West into an unwinnable situation no matter what we do. When you say "erase identity politics" well this applies to a massive chunk of non-radical Western Muslims as well, you are in effect talking about eliminating the gray zone also. That is why their strategy is so threatening, there is no winning move for the West as long as the West holds on to its ideological contradictions.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#183

Post by CrimsnBlade »

seiji wrote: post #71
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

There are only so many young people willing to sacrifice everything for fanatic dreams of afterlife fulfillment as payment for promises of improving the here-now. Most youth, in other words, aren't that stupid. Startups seem to be pretty good at convincing a never-ending stream of youth to surrender 500% productivity now in exchange for (usually lies about) riches in the future. "Yeah, it's linkedfacebox, you know, a…

What you're saying makes sense, but I think joining a radical group known for brutality and joining a company promising to make you rich are two very different things. I think the chances of youth wanting to be successful in their lifetime is far greater than that of a youth joining a group with a promise of a fantastic afterlife.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#184

Post by dragonwriter »

Torgo wrote: post #182
liotier wrote: post #119

Want to know what ISIS is up to ? Just take it from their official magazine - it is right there, explicit. The strategy is called "The extinction of the gray zone" - it is about polarizing western society by eliciting islamophobia: "Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes for a place to live in the Khilāfah, as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in W…

Their definition of an apostate Muslim is basically identical to our definition of an assimilated Muslim. Simply being more tolerant may avoid one horn, but gets you gored by the other. They are not dumb, their strategy is more complex than what they lay out in their official publication. Their goal is to put the West into an unwinnable situation no matter what we do. When you say "erase identity politics" well this…

> Their goal is to put the West into an unwinnable situation no matter what we do.

No, their goal is to place Muslims in a situation where the fear of hatred from the West against Muslims (which Daesh kindles by provocative attacks on the West designed to get the West to blame, and retaliate against, Muslims generally) and fear of the consequences of defying Daesh (which Daesh creates by violent attacks on those Muslims who defy them) leave Muslims to perceive accepting the dominion of Daesh as the least bad option open to them. That's how the Caliphate is formed and grows.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#185

Post by tremon »

lhc- wrote: post #170
graycat wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are answers: ISIS just attacked NATO -- definitely Darwin award material. NATO can "wipe the desert clean" in less than an hour anytime NATO is willing to do what ISIS does -- create civilian casualties. By clean , in the ISIS areas, no more buildings, oil infrastructure, vehicles, tents, flocks, camels, or people. None. Then, the end of ISIS and whatever beliefs, determination, goals, history, etc. D…

When will NATO destroy an entire nation, civilians and all? How is that a remotely reasonable response? That's like suggesting that Pakistan would be justified in nuking Washington DC because American drone strikes have killed civilians there. There's no world where its justifiable to murder a nation of civilians, ever.

While I agree with the point you're making, how many civilians are left in ISIS controlled territory though? I don't have any numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if 50% has fled and another 40% has been killed by ISIS. So how many people are there, not including the people that chose to join ISIS?

I've seen some footage from Sinjar after it was retaken by the Kurds: not a single building was left standing. It's hard to imagine anyone still living there.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#186

Post by Spooky23 »

graycat wrote: post #135
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

Of course there are answers: ISIS just attacked NATO -- definitely Darwin award material. NATO can "wipe the desert clean" in less than an hour anytime NATO is willing to do what ISIS does -- create civilian casualties. By clean , in the ISIS areas, no more buildings, oil infrastructure, vehicles, tents, flocks, camels, or people. None. Then, the end of ISIS and whatever beliefs, determination, goals, history, etc. D…

France isn't a part of NATO, and hasn't been for 50 years. Which is probably one of the reasons they were selected as a target.

Armies are good at breaking down nation-states by destroying the opposing military and means of production. Putting the middle east aside, as it's still happening, I think the history of the 20th century aptly demonstrates that organized military force isn't effective in defeating revolutionary movements. The Vietnamese were successful in ejecting France and the US, the Irish were able to defeat the British Empire, the Yugoslavians were successful against the Germans.

The Germans pretty much did what you suggest NATO is capable of, given the will. They executed hostages in reprisal. They blew up towns and burned crops. They rounded up partisan leaders and hung them on the roadside. Again, didn't really work. From a humanist perspective, I don't think that is the type of conduct NATO countries aspire to.

You don't stop revolutionary movements by blowing stuff up. You have to undermine the base of ideology or grievances.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#187

Post by CrimsnBlade »

anon4 wrote: post #148
kuschku wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate. So, 18 months maternity/paternity leave, 180€ per month per child you have, plus tax breaks, plus better credit rating, plus 12 more sick days a year, plus subsidized kindergarten and daycare (with guaranteed daycare place from age 3 on), cheap whole-day school for chi…

Industrialise child raising, like everything else. Artificial wombs. Group day-care. Have women donate eggs, men donate sperm and combine them randomly. Make it the duty of every person to be a parent to 2 to 3 children with fines for not doing their part until they hit 30/40 years of age. The babies will be born never knowing their biological parents. Then they're sent to child-raising facilities, either government…

I certainly hope there is some sarcasm intended with this. A world where raising children is turned into an industry (makes me think of Orwell's 1984) is one that I would not enjoy being a part of.

It does however seem that the flow of the economy, the fact that no one is willing to slow down for anything, and everything needed to be finished yesterday, certainly hinders people from things such as having children. Companies simply see a mother on maternity leave as an employee that isn't producing, as cold as that sounds. It's sad how emotionless companies can be when they're focused solely on the dollar signs...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#188

Post by graycat »

lhc- wrote: post #170
graycat wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are answers: ISIS just attacked NATO -- definitely Darwin award material. NATO can "wipe the desert clean" in less than an hour anytime NATO is willing to do what ISIS does -- create civilian casualties. By clean , in the ISIS areas, no more buildings, oil infrastructure, vehicles, tents, flocks, camels, or people. None. Then, the end of ISIS and whatever beliefs, determination, goals, history, etc. D…

When will NATO destroy an entire nation, civilians and all? How is that a remotely reasonable response? That's like suggesting that Pakistan would be justified in nuking Washington DC because American drone strikes have killed civilians there. There's no world where its justifiable to murder a nation of civilians, ever.

> There's no world where its justifiable to murder a nation of civilians, ever.

Yup, and that's just what ISIS is trying to do -- everyone in the world, convert to radical Sunni Islam and follow ISIS or die.

To heck with the details: The US, France, Germany, England, all of NATO has a right to defend themselves.

With the ISIS ideology, they will be trying to kill everyone else, infidels, as long as there is just one ISIS person left.

At this point it is not enough to stop the ISIS killings. Instead, we must stop the ability of ISIS to do harm outside of their area.

Sure, taking the desert area of ISIS and wiping it clean is not reasonable, but neither is ISIS.

I don't want to kill them. I especially don't want to hurt the girls and young women, especially the ones they have made into sex slaves. I don't even want to hurt their flocks and camels.

But I want to stop ISIS now and forever in the future. I don't want to spend even one drop of NATO blood. I don't want to spend even one US penny more than necessary. But I want ISIS stopped. We are not obligated to put up with their wacko nonsense. It is our responsibility that they be stopped. If they had any responsibility or deserved any from us, then they would long since have stopped their wacko, medieval nonsense. Since they have not stopped and have no sense of responsibility, we need just to stop them.

Stop them from the air. Take out their leaders and their oil infrastructure. Occupy their oil areas and take the oil. For the rest of the area, we might for a while try to send them back to tents, flocks, and camels cooking their food with camel dung. I I suspect it won't work, that all they have is what their radical clerics tell them, and those clerics will stop only when dead.

Basically they have a wacko, violent, ugly, stupid medieval culture enabled by oil money and nothing else, are 1000 years out of date, with no hope of moving ahead the needed several hundred years. No hope.

And their nuke threat is real. Time to stop them.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#189

Post by AnimalMuppet »

These people are looking for something that the western civilization is not giving them. For some, it's just to be treated like human beings rather than something less.

But others are looking for something else. They look at the materialist view (where all we are is a collection of atoms created by random chance, obeying the laws of physics and biochemistry and neurology, and where it's very difficult to find any real (non-arbitrary) meaning in life), and they find it empty - empty in a way that more material prosperity won't fix.

And they look at Christianity in Europe, and too often they find it to be dead - full of unreality and dust.

Their cry is in essence the same as the hippies in the 1960s: "Your society isn't giving us adequate answers. It's not enough to satisfy our hearts."

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#190

Post by return0 »

carlob wrote: post #138
return0 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What numbers are we talking about here? It seems that an extremely tiny percentage are radicalized, and they don't seem to come from a specific social class. In other words, is it not a gathering of nutjobs?

Read the article, up to 25% of the youth in these areas show some form of support for ISIS.

Showing "Some support" is very very very far from being part of such an extreme organization. Or else we would all be dead .
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