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The War ISIS Wants

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Re: The War ISIS Wants

#161

Post by sjs382 »

liotier wrote: post #119

Want to know what ISIS is up to ? Just take it from their official magazine - it is right there, explicit. The strategy is called "The extinction of the gray zone" - it is about polarizing western society by eliciting islamophobia: "Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes for a place to live in the Khilāfah, as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in W…

The Intercept just posted an article about this, too: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/islamic-states-goal-elim...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#162

Post by linkregister »

rdtsc wrote: post #154
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source for "all those "moderate" rebels switched to ISIS"? Source for "$100B in funding"? This smacks of conspiracy claptrap that adds nothing of substance to the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_... "Defense Intelligence $80.1 billion[12] 3.3% Because of classified nature, budget is an estimate and may not be the actual figure" Something makes me doubt another $20B into the intelligence budget would have changed the outcome for the better. More sauce: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/1... https://en.zamanalwsl.net/readNews.…

I disagree that a request for sources is unwarranted in this situation. Your language assumed the reader agreed with your viewpoint based off of not-commonly-known facts: "of course... stupid because..."

I understand your decision to reply with snark to a snarky comment, but in this instance, "src pls!" does in fact add to the discussion.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#163

Post by nickff »

liotier wrote: post #119

Want to know what ISIS is up to ? Just take it from their official magazine - it is right there, explicit. The strategy is called "The extinction of the gray zone" - it is about polarizing western society by eliciting islamophobia: "Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes for a place to live in the Khilāfah, as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in W…

So you are proposing that the French should respond to having over a hundred of their fellow citizens killed, and hundreds more injured by loving the supporters and leaders of ISIS?

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#164

Post by rdtsc »

linkregister wrote: post #162
rdtsc wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_... "Defense Intelligence $80.1 billion[12] 3.3% Because of classified nature, budget is an estimate and may not be the actual figure" Something makes me doubt another $20B into the intelligence budget would have changed the outcome for the better. More sauce: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/1... https://en.zamanalwsl.net/readNews.…

I disagree that a request for sources is unwarranted in this situation. Your language assumed the reader agreed with your viewpoint based off of not-commonly-known facts: "of course... stupid because..." I understand your decision to reply with snark to a snarky comment, but in this instance, "src pls!" does in fact add to the discussion.

I think if they are interested in the conversation it is worth throwing more than a drive-by "srs pls" comment into it.

For example it could have been "Well I think the budget is a bit off, CIA itself doesn't get that money, did you mean the total intelligence budget".

Or "Agreed, do you have any sources for the fighters who switched side? that would be interesting to see".

Imagine you are sitting by the fire and discussing something, and someone just chimes with "src pls", "srs pls", I wouldn't consider them contributing to the discussion, rather derailing it.

So I agree, source would help here, did provide sources but responded snarky to give the person asking for them a hint (not so subtle, perhaps) that in general that is not a constructive way to hold a conversation.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#165

Post by maxharris »

varjag wrote: post #9
kefka wrote: post #4

So, it seems that the only way to fight this was is to change their minds by asking assistance from the peaceful Muslim groups. We can discriminate Daesh and Muslims, and that only shows the monsters they say we are. We can bomb Daesh, which only encourages more to join their cause. Worst case, we can nuke the whole area of Iraq and Syria where Daesh has power, and that would only show every Muslim in the world that…

You underestimate the degree to which people of violence listen to the language of violence. The article suggests the military conquest is the key of Daesh attractiveness. But similarly, its military loss will be its demise. Lost territory and decimated ranks will make it a lot less exciting to the recruits. Harder wars have been fought and won before.

Daesh

What do you think of this piece by Maajid Nawaz?

Why Not Calling ISIS “Islamic” Hurts Muslim Reformers: http://jrbenjamin.com/2015/03/06/maajid-nawaz-why-not-callin...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#166

Post by Vraxx »

nickff wrote: post #163
liotier wrote: post #119

Want to know what ISIS is up to ? Just take it from their official magazine - it is right there, explicit. The strategy is called "The extinction of the gray zone" - it is about polarizing western society by eliciting islamophobia: "Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes for a place to live in the Khilāfah, as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in W…

So you are proposing that the French should respond to having over a hundred of their fellow citizens killed, and hundreds more injured by loving the supporters and leaders of ISIS?

No, I think he meant other Muslims that aren't/weren't involved with ISIS. Remember, ISIS is still a radical minority, and there are Muslims who don't support ISIS.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#167

Post by natvod »

Here's a very relevant article about how French youth get radicalized: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/08/31/the-other-franc...

Major points:

Unless you have the right connections, go to the right schools, have the right French names, it's very difficult to get a good job. Even more so if you come from banlieues. With no job prospects and isolation from mainstream society, some Muslim youths retreat to religion and out of those, some discover and/or led to radical ideologies.

If you read the article, you'll see that there are some Muslims who are trying to rescue these youths. I feel this could be part of an actually solution. Since Muslim youth won't trust outsiders at all, the government can provide Muslim community leaders some resources to intervene in the lives of youths that are going down the wrong paths from crime to radicalization.

Also, they can consider setting up programs for parents to identify the signs of radicalization and educate them about how to intervene and de-escalate. Apparently, a father of one of the Paris attackers even went all the way to Syria to persuade his son to come home. Even after offering him a plan where he didn't have to go to prison but could resettle in Algeria and try to rebuild his life, the son refused. After a certain point in the radicalization process, there seems to be a point of no return.

Clearly, just bombing ISIS is not going to work when the majority of these terrorists lived in Europe.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#168

Post by clock_tower »

thewarrior wrote: post #39
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

Isn't it funny that Wahabbists hate being called that ? They get really agitated and say we're not Wahabbis we're just true muslims. One interesting theory I read is that 19th Century Islam was forced to confront the reality that they had declined while Europe had soared. In the ensuing conflict of ideas the one that won out was the thesis that the Islamic world had declined because they had gotten out of touch with…

I would recommend reading Bernard Lewis, _What Went Wrong?: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response_, which discusses the early stages of this conflict -- the failure of the Ottoman Empire. I'd also recommend reading up on the fall of the Qing dynasty, which occurred at about the same time, for about the same reasons; the two histories aren't the same, by any means, but they shed a little light on each other.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#169

Post by nickff »

Vraxx wrote: post #166
nickff wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are proposing that the French should respond to having over a hundred of their fellow citizens killed, and hundreds more injured by loving the supporters and leaders of ISIS?

No, I think he meant other Muslims that aren't/weren't involved with ISIS. Remember, ISIS is still a radical minority, and there are Muslims who don't support ISIS.

If what you are supposing is true, it fails to address what should be done now; should the French increase air attacks on ISIS, abandon their effort, or lead a ground incursion?

Over 50% of the population in many Muslim majority states believe that terrorism is at least 'rarely', and over 5% (, which is a large number of people,) believe it is justified 'often'.[1] There are obviously a large number of Muslims who do not support ISIS (probably a great majority, given sectarian and other considerations), but ISIS is not the only extremist Islamist organization in conflict with western values and/or governments.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terro...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#170

Post by lhc- »

graycat wrote: post #135
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

Of course there are answers: ISIS just attacked NATO -- definitely Darwin award material. NATO can "wipe the desert clean" in less than an hour anytime NATO is willing to do what ISIS does -- create civilian casualties. By clean , in the ISIS areas, no more buildings, oil infrastructure, vehicles, tents, flocks, camels, or people. None. Then, the end of ISIS and whatever beliefs, determination, goals, history, etc. D…

When will NATO destroy an entire nation, civilians and all? How is that a remotely reasonable response? That's like suggesting that Pakistan would be justified in nuking Washington DC because American drone strikes have killed civilians there. There's no world where its justifiable to murder a nation of civilians, ever.
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