VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#541

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:55 PM UTC

iamthepieman wrote: post #531

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to grasp this concept when USA, a very Christian county, doesn't seem to have policies that follow loving each other. Income inequality is rising and there is plenty of argument on who can marry whom, etc. It's very strange that a religion founded on love has not been in some military conflict more than a decade or two.

I'm Not sure exactly what you're saying here. (I understand that perhaps English is not your native language) There are many christian churches and religious groups that function more as social organizations than religious ones. I wish they organized around something besides religion as it would make it less confusing but I don't really have a problem with this. I just don't expect the same views and behaviors from t…

Sorry, I can't speak properly when I'm on my phone. Now I'm on the computer I hope I can be a little more clear. I struggle with the notion of Christianity = love when (arguably) one of the most Christian countries is rife with problems and conflict distinctly un-lovelike. America has horrible education, especially for the children that need it most. It incarcerates a huge amount of people (many used for forced labor) and as far as I know there is a large culture behind punishing more than rehabilitating. Its healthcare system charges people to broke when they need it most, and the mental health system is bad on its own merits. If the majority of the people are based on a religion of loving each other, how can this happen in such a country?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#542

Post by JonoBB » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

iamthepieman wrote: post #37

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

I think the extent to which this sect is completely and utterly divorced from the rest of humanity was well captured in a piece by The Atlantic - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...

> We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world.

> We are misled in a second way, by a well-intentioned but dishonest campaign to deny the Islamic State’s medieval religious nature.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#543

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #540

dragonwriter wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but even then you have to look at who the FBI and other law enforcement agencies are watching to understand that Christian extremists are individual actors who target specifics like abortion providers. No, they aren't. Christian extremists include organized extremist groups, including those that have been behind or sheltered abortion clinic attacks (e.g., Army of God), and also much of the militia movement (large s…

I don't disagree with the fact that there are and have been domestic Christian extremists. I was specifically responding to DanBC's claim that US citizens are at GREATER risk from the police and Christian terrorists. What information sources do you follow that indicate that Christian extremism is even remotely as great a threat as Islamic extremism? When I look at the FBI most wanted terrorists lists and other source…

> What information sources do you follow that indicate that Christian extremism is even remotely as great a threat as Islamic extremism?

Actual statistics on who kills Americans in America.

> When I look at the FBI most wanted terrorists lists

That tells you which individuals the FBI sees the most value to the policy objectives set by their political leadership to draw public attention to.

It doesn't tell you anything about relative risk of classes of terrorists. At most, given complete trust of the judgement of the FBI and assumption of their policy objectives being aligned with risk to Americans and assumption that there are no factors other than risk weighing into what they draw public attention to, it gives you information on the relative risk attached to individual terrorists. But, even then, if there are relatively fewer Islamic groups posing danger to Americans, and each of those groups is more dependent on a narrow set of senior leaders for effectiveness, then members of Islamic groups could be dominate the 10 most wanted list by being the individuals responsible for the most risk, even while Christian groups are collectively responsible for greater risk.

> Contrary to your claim that the DoJ is downplaying domestic terrorism

I didn't claim that DoJ is downplaying domestic terrorism.

What I stated is that they don't issue press releases as frequently, and don't highlight organizational ties in the press releases they do issue, for the actual specific arrests or specific investigations of homegrown Christian terrorists in the way they do for arrests or specific investigations of Islamic terrorists tied to international groups.

This is actually in tension with the DoJ's portrayals of the overall risk from domestic, non-Islamic groups (I suggest a possible motive for this inconsistency in my early post, though that is pure speculation.)

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#544

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

eric_the_read wrote: post #487

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/opinion/campaign-stops/... Forgive me, I'm not from USA, is Iowa the deep south?

Not even close. It's firmly situated in the midwest, about 685 km from the nearest town in what I'd call the deep south (Fayetteville, AR).

Oh. Thank you for the clarification!

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#545

Post by DanBC » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #540

dragonwriter wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but even then you have to look at who the FBI and other law enforcement agencies are watching to understand that Christian extremists are individual actors who target specifics like abortion providers. No, they aren't. Christian extremists include organized extremist groups, including those that have been behind or sheltered abortion clinic attacks (e.g., Army of God), and also much of the militia movement (large s…

I don't disagree with the fact that there are and have been domestic Christian extremists. I was specifically responding to DanBC's claim that US citizens are at GREATER risk from the police and Christian terrorists. What information sources do you follow that indicate that Christian extremism is even remotely as great a threat as Islamic extremism? When I look at the FBI most wanted terrorists lists and other source…

Here's what the FBI said in 2002:

https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/the-terrorist-threat-conf...

> At the same time, the United States also faces significant challenges from domestic terrorists. In fact, between 1980 and 2000, the FBI recorded 335 incidents or suspected incidents of terrorism in this country. Of these, 247 were attributed to domestic terrorists, while 88 were determined to be international in nature.

> Right-wing groups continue to represent a serious terrorist threat. Two of the seven planned acts of terrorism prevented in 1999 were potentially large-scale, high-casualty attacks being planned by organized right-wing extremist groups.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#546

Post by akamel » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

paki123 wrote: post #494

I think it's important to remember that a lot of muslims are just as "ignorant" of their own text, as many Christians and Jews are. For example, music is strictly forbidden in Islam, except for the beat of a drum. Modern Christians and Jews often fall back on the excuse of interpreting their books as metaphors as opposed to the literal word of god. It's a great cop out. Islam isn't compatible with an open society, bu…

> For example, music is strictly forbidden in Islam, except for the beat of a drum.

o.0 and that's in the Quran where? You talk with such certainty; seems to me _you_ are also very 'ignorant' of the Islamic Text

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#547

Post by terrn » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #517

redial wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other mammals as in the ones who use religious texts to get 'power' in the real world. Politicians, military leaders, jihadists, and sadly even teachers and parents. And was the Quran not a revelation from 'God' only to Muhammad? If he wants to believe it, fine, why should anybody else? Oh yes, eternal torture. It is childish to be told a story and believe it true only because they threaten you.

Oh yes, I agree. Unfortunately, we live in an imperfect world where not all followers of a religion follow its true message. You might say "well OK, so get rid of religion". People will still seek power, but in other ways. In other words, there are people who always seek the easiest way to gain more power and influence. Yes, the Quran was revealed directly to Muhammad. He told his wife first, and she believed him. It…

Sigh...there are a lot of problems with your statement. The first is that you are reciting anecdotes from 1400 years ago; there is absolutely no proof of anything you said. Even if we accept that the Quran was given to Mohammed by God, we have to at least acknowledge the possibility that a lot of what you've learned has been added in by various persons over the course of many hundreds of years i.e. we cannot be so sure about anything that is written down, by anyone, at any time, especially from something as old as the Quran. And to be clear, that applies to all writing, the Bible, etc.

The second is that no, believing ANYBODY about ANYTHING, no matter how eloquently put, is foolish to say the least. It doesn't make a difference if they are my parent or not, never mind some professor or total stranger. The only person who can decide if something is right or not is YOU. Belief should not be based on how charismatic anyone is, that is irrelevant. Unfortunately, you have total responsibility for your actions and opinions and it is inexcusable to believe anyone or anything without first exploring your doubt. And even then it is up to you to walk the line of what should be believed and what should be questioned.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#548

Post by smokeyj » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 7:00 PM UTC

wordbank wrote: post #470

MrPatan wrote: post #400

Religion is a smoke screen. Does it matter if you chop bits off your kids "because a book told me to" or "because my mom told me to"? All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. The problem is the culture as a whole. Does it work? Or does it not work? The way to know if a culture works is to look at migration patterns. People leave cultures that don't work and go to better cultures. But…

> All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. Why generalize? How about the core parts of Buddhism that are literally a checklist on how to calm your mind. And the same methods are used by modern psychotherapy as "cognitive behavioural therapy" and "mindfulness".

It's like tradition. You don't say it's tradition to eat dinner - because there's a clear and logical reason why.

Meditation has empirical benefits. Meditation is good. If you believe you have to meditate to not go to flaming eternal hell, that's religion.

So I'd argue, keep the logic, drop the religion.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#549

Post by will_pseudonym » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 7:02 PM UTC

JonoBB wrote: post #542

iamthepieman wrote: post #37

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

I think the extent to which this sect is completely and utterly divorced from the rest of humanity was well captured in a piece by The Atlantic - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi... > We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change…

I read an interesting article which found that it wasn't necessarily a religious sect for many of its members. It was more of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" after the aftermath of Middle East turmoil after post 9-11 military operations by the USA and others. Give it a read. It made a lot of sense.

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-inte...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#550

Post by hyperpape » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 7:05 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #237

jacquesm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

>And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40% That statement really doesn't make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come…

You may say "I don't want to send them back to Syria" but there are only two real choices: to take your share of refugees and work with other countries to get them to do the same, or to wash your hands of them and leave them to the wolves.

There was a boat of Jewish refugees that Roosevelt hoped would be accepted to Cuba but whom the United States was unwilling to accept. 254 of those refugees ended up murdered in the Holocaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis#.22Voyage_of_the_....