VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#511

Post by mercurial » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 5:54 PM UTC

kelukelugames wrote: post #406

coldtea wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn't sit in the same restaurants/hotels/schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states. Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland,…

Isn't France still collecting some form of colonial tax from African countries?

I'm aware of something called the Franc CFA, but that's not a tax...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#512

Post by wfo » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #482

jacquesm wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's easier to define an open society in terms of what it isn't: it isn't a society in which women are second rate citizens, it isn't a society where religion forms the backbone of the state, it isn't a society where free speech in a practical sense is forbidden, it isn't a society where politics are so rotten that the basics of democracy are no longer present. So North Korea probably doesn't qualify as an open…

But note that some people desire attributes of society that they consider to qualify as "open society" that many other people who also claim to want an "open society" oppose. For instance, one might beliege that an open society would not have hate speech laws or copyright laws, and that anyone who supports such laws has "beliefs incompatible with an open society."

In particular on HN there are plenty of a very extreme breed of libertarians who believe 'open society' means no regulation or taxes as well. It's a generic weasel word that means "stuff I like and not stuff I don't like".

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#513

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 5:56 PM UTC

drumdance wrote: post #501

dragonwriter wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Al Qaeda had very specific grievances. They wanted US troops to leave Saudi Arabia, where they first put bases before the first Gulf War. That was a position used to justify action, rally supporters, and which was quite overtly an instrumental (rather than terminal) goal in their grand strategy --- which was -- like that of Daesh -- to achieve a pan-Islamic caliphate. (It's worth noting that al-Qaeda was formed sev…

Yes of course they're long term goal is a caliphate. But they attacked the US because our presence was a direct obstacle. They didn't put suicide bombers in China or Copenhagen or Paris for that matter. Back in 1991 after Saddam invaded Kuwait, I remember thinking "why the hell do we have to solve the problem? Why not force Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf States to take responsibility for their security?" Practically…

> But they attacked the US because our presence was a direct obstacle. They didn't put suicide bombers in China or Copenhagen or Paris for that matter.

al-Qaeda has for more than a decade overtly targeted China over its policies in Xinjiang, and the Chinese government claimed that the East Turkistan Islamic Movement behind many attacks there was tied to al-Qaeda (and, indeed, some senior leaders of that organization were killed in fighting against al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.)

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#514

Post by whoopdedo » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 5:59 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #301

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40% That statement really doesn't make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come…

> There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn't sit in the same restaurants/hotels/schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states. Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland,…

> Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn't sit in the same restaurants/hotels/schools with whites.

Having read various internet comments over the past few days, I'm doubting if that number has gone down any since then.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#515

Post by xorcist » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:00 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #344

Natanael_L wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why can't they be the same thing, just in different contexts? On both sides there's people who believe the enemy will destroy the world, and believes in a particular ideal, and who sends out armies to achieve their goals, and both sides are very clearly not very precise in who they actually target (the bombing on Doctor's Without Border, anyone?). Both sides cause tons of civilian casualties, both refuse to apol…

IS = an ideological network of individuals hiding among civilian populations across the globe US = an nation state with an identifiable military subjected to rule of law >and both sides are very clearly not very precise in who they actually target (the bombing on Doctor's Without Border, anyone?). Both sides cause tons of civilian casualties For better or worse the US is operating on intelligence specifically designe…

The leader of one of these organizations is known to have said: "God told me to bomb (them), so I did. God is on our side."

It's not always easy from the outside to tell them apart from their propaganda.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#516

Post by ue_ » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:02 PM UTC

MrPatan wrote: post #400

Religion is a smoke screen. Does it matter if you chop bits off your kids "because a book told me to" or "because my mom told me to"? All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them. The problem is the culture as a whole. Does it work? Or does it not work? The way to know if a culture works is to look at migration patterns. People leave cultures that don't work and go to better cultures. But…

>All religions are silly ridiculous relics. Let's stop talking about them.

You can't actually reliably say this without first going through every religion and telling us how ridiculous you find it.

But I'm not really bothered about every religion. Out of interest, what's ridiculous about Buddhism, and how are you going to quantify the ridiculousness?

Your argument doesn't work as well with Buddhism. It works to an extent (there are repressive Buddhist monks etc.) If I lived near a Buddhist (or Christian) monastery, chances are that I'd respect it, and I would wish to preserve it. I'd even offer up for an alms round. After all, they do no harm to me.

Note that I'm only picking Buddhism because it's a religion I'm relatively familiar with. I don't know enough about Christianity (the largest religion in the world, which doesn't even advocate circumcision) to argue the point on Christianity.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#517

Post by Cyph0n » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:03 PM UTC

redial wrote: post #462

Cyph0n wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What private revelation? Go to your nearest bookstore and pick up the Quran. Problem solved. "Other mammal" here refers to what exactly? As for punishment, that happens when you intentionally deny the existence of the Creator, even when given the access to His word and religion. Islam teaches us that human beings are born pure and good by default, unlike other religions. Suppose you lived your life on a remote island…

Other mammals as in the ones who use religious texts to get 'power' in the real world. Politicians, military leaders, jihadists, and sadly even teachers and parents. And was the Quran not a revelation from 'God' only to Muhammad? If he wants to believe it, fine, why should anybody else? Oh yes, eternal torture. It is childish to be told a story and believe it true only because they threaten you.

Oh yes, I agree. Unfortunately, we live in an imperfect world where not all followers of a religion follow its true message. You might say "well OK, so get rid of religion". People will still seek power, but in other ways. In other words, there are people who always seek the easiest way to gain more power and influence.

Yes, the Quran was revealed directly to Muhammad. He told his wife first, and she believed him. It just spread from there. I'd argue that the absolutely miracolous rate at which Islam spread throughout the region is a plus in favor of Islam :)

As for your point about eternal torture, let's say a guy comes up to you in the street nowadays and tells you he's a Prophet sent by God to save humanity. He tells you about this book called Mojimbi which is the word of God. At this point, you have complete freedom to accept of reject his claim. Unless he can convince you that what he's saying is true, you wouldn't believe him and he'd be on his way.

Muhammad however was able to convince people with two things.

One, he was known in his community to be an extremely honest person; never once did anyone hear of him lying. He was a trader, so he dealt with a lot of people. So when he said that he was visited by an angel etc, some people just believed him on the spot. Of course, many others called him crazy, so it wasn't a fool-proof plan.

Two, he had the Quran. Some background first. The community Muhammad lived in was very well-versed in the Arabic language. Most mastered the language and its intricacies by the age of 10, and were known as experts in poetry. Look it up, Arabic is extremely complex.

So he recites some verses from the Quran to people and claims that these are words from Allah (keep in mind he was illiterate). They were amazed, absolutely awestruck by the words coming out of his mouth. The structure and linguistic nature of the verses was perfect, and this was coming from experts in the language! One of the Prophet's biggest critics (and a great poet no less) at the time was almost going to join Islam just because of this.

Now, let's go back to the example. You're a professor of English language at Standford, and a guy you've dealt with a lot and who you know is an extremely honest person in all aspects tells you the same message. He also recites some verses that are so elegant and beautiful in structure that they make Shakespeare look like a pre-schooler's work, and tells you these are the words of God. Wouldn't that make things different?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#518

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:04 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #496

jacquesm wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were up to Geert Wilders we'd be going around with a color chart in shades of brown and a burning Koran to figure out who we should kick out and who is allowed to stay.

Well if you ditch the color chart and add a burning New Testament and Chumash, I don't see the problem.

OT3?

In that bastion of critical thought called 'the Onion' they had a pretty good summary of such a solution:

http://www.theonion.com/article/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-g...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#519

Post by the_af » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:05 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #350

the_af wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, note that no beheadings have been staged in Vatican City in recent years. True, but I think it's more complex than that. First, I do not think the Vatican automatically represents the most conservative brand of Christianity; not at all times, anyway. Not now, for example. Second, beheadings seem rightfully barbaric and horrendous to us, but as terrible as they are, I think their impact is superficial in a…

> ISIS beheadings are a matter of form, a propaganda tool Wrong. The beheadings are the things Mohammad did, as written in their holy books, so they just do that, following their role model even without the cameras.

In what sense is this wrong? Everyone from all sides is saying this: that ISIS is different from other radical Muslims in their effective use of propaganda. Have you seen some of their videos? They are crazy, and I'm not talking about the beheadings. They use "Western" techniques, including stuff like slow-motion for dramatic effect.

Public beheadings, whether televised or not, are always propaganda, a show of force, a message to the common people. Public punishment is sometimes a barbaric form of entertainment, which is a form of propaganda as well. Historically this was the case in most countries, including those in Europe.

In the case of ISIS, I also think they are meant to shock Europe and the US into action. A war between Islam and the West is just what ISIS needs.

I find your explanation about Mohammed utterly unconvincing, because most Muslims don't go around beheading people, only some. ISIS and people from backwards, poverty-stricken countries/communities do, but that's a different issue.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#520

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 6:05 PM UTC

emilecantin wrote: post #435

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, neat! Thanks for enlightening a bit. I still have a long way to go to understand Christianity, it seems.

It's quite simple, really: «Love one another». This is THE thing that Jesus said we should do, and it takes precedence over anything else. For example, sure, some minor book in the Bible might say that's it's kinda bad to be gay, but hating other people that disrespect a minor recommendation is contrary to the most important commandment.

I struggle to grasp this concept when USA, a very Christian county, doesn't seem to have policies that follow loving each other. Income inequality is rising and there is plenty of argument on who can marry whom, etc. It's very strange that a religion founded on love has not been in some military conflict more than a decade or two.