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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#471
post #64

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

Here's a timely book by Sam Harris where he (successfully!) debates with a formerly fairly-extreme Muslim:

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/0674088700?ref_=cm_sw_r_a...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not Jacques, but from a few months back: "White Supremacists More Dangerous To America Than Foreign Terrorists, Study Says" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24/domestic-terrorism-... > At least 48 people have been killed stateside by right-wing > extremists in the 14 years since since the September 11 > attacks -- almost twice as many as were killed by > self-identified jihadists in that time. As Jacques says, "…

That's a very good research methodology. Excluding non-stateside attacks and arbitrarily selecting 2002 as the starting point to arrive at a likely preselected conclusion.

sure. let's start in 1930:

white supremacists: 11,000,000+...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#473
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

And notice that when the commenter says "open society," that really just means the type of society that he or she desires. It's phrased in such a way that it sounds like an objective uncontroversial description of a society that all "good" people desire, but alas such an objective description does not exist.

Maybe it's easier to define an open society in terms of what it isn't: it isn't a society in which women are second rate citizens, it isn't a society where religion forms the backbone of the state, it isn't a society where free speech in a practical sense is forbidden, it isn't a society where politics are so rotten that the basics of democracy are no longer present. So North Korea probably doesn't qualify as an open society, but Sweden does. Russia probably doesn't but that's up for debate, that's just my view.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#474
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breivik wrote a manifesto claiming he was doing it to support Christianity. And yet people don't call him a Christian terrorist.

To be fair, Breivik was an individual, while ISIS is a movement.

Let's rejoice about that (About Breivik being only an individual, actually he's not quite just an individual, there are more idiots like that but so far they haven't been able to do a whole lot of damage in Western Europe, let's hope it stays that way).

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#475
post #446

I'm living in Paris. I heard gunfire from my apartment. My heart goes out to Salah-Eddin, and all people living in the shadow of unspeakable abominations. It saddens me to imagine that simply hearing gunfire in the distance is nothing compared to what my fellow man has witnessed elsewhere. Salah-Eddin's condolences mean a lot to me and I wish him all the best. It's my sincerest hope that French troops will be deploye…

> It's my sincerest hope that French troops will be deployed to Syria in the near future, and that such an action will prove useful in protecting him, his family, his neighbors and his culture. Well, the problem is that according to his post, he lives "in the western part of the city [Aleppo] still under the control of the Syrian government[Under the "presidency" of Bashar al-Assad]" and the French Government has bee…

The wikipedia page is very interesting, but the motives are not clear, esp. for France. Any idea ?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#476
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is certainly a fair point as far as it goes[1], but let's not forgot that Islamic terror was directed at the US for many years before Iraq! [1] and I still hold the idea that I held in 2003, that the Iraq war was a completely idiotic veture

> Islamic terror was directed at the US for many years before Iraq! Al Qaeda had very specific grievances. They wanted US troops to leave Saudi Arabia, where they first put bases before the Persian Gulf War. (Aside: Bin Laden offered his irregular forces to Saudi Arabia to help defend the kingdom from Saddam. He was rejected. That pissed him off some, but the presence of infidels in the land of Mecca pissed him off e…

> Al Qaeda had very specific grievances. They wanted US troops to leave Saudi Arabia, where they first put bases before the first Gulf War.

That was a position used to justify action, rally supporters, and which was quite overtly an instrumental (rather than terminal) goal in their grand strategy --- which was -- like that of Daesh -- to achieve a pan-Islamic caliphate.

(It's worth noting that al-Qaeda was formed several years before the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait that prompted the creation of those bases, and adopted the position of opposing the bases after the Saudi government turned down bin Laden's offer for al-Qaeda fighters to defend the Kingdom against Iraq in favor of accepting aid from the United States. And both al-Qaeda's long-term goals and their anti-Western rhetoric existed before those bases.)

> Not saying terrorism is a legitimate response, but it's much more explainable than "they hates us for our freedoms."

Sure, but not for the reasons you propose: al-Qaeda's opposition to the West is because their strategy for achieving dominion in the Islamic world is the time-tested strategy of totalitarians everywhere -- sell the target population on the threat of an external enemy, and use that to sell the idea that the totalitarian leaders and their proposed system of rulership are necessary to combat that external threat. Its not a response to anything the West does, although anything that the West does that creates (or can be fuel for propaganda to create) widespread grievances (legitimate or not) in the populations in which al-Qaeda seeks to establish its caliphate will be leveraged. Daesh is much the same in this respect.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#477

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

Fundamentally (no pun intended) the entire situation is summed up by "Which laws can preempt which laws." Specifically are God's laws superior or are the laws of men superior?

This question is the root of many violent clashes, especially where a smaller group disagrees on a preemption ordering than the larger group. In the US the most obvious example is the assertion that the constitutional rights of privacy between a woman and her doctor trump (or supercede) the rights of a group to declare abortion as murder. While many people will have different opinions on whether it is right or wrong to abort a pregnancy, when you read about bombing of abortion clinics or killing of doctors who have performed abortions, those perpetrators have stated that they believe they are enforcing God's laws above the laws of the land.

The narrative is that God's laws are more important because they determine if you go to hell or heaven, whereas the laws of men merely incarcerate you.

The challenge is that in the Medieval period people figured out that having laws under the control of a small group of people who were not checked by "the governed" gave rise to a conflict of interest which inevitably resulted in the law makers crafting advantages for themselves and their friends and to the detriment of the people.

As a culture it is important to respect and have tolerance for people who choose to follow their own laws, and it is essential to protect those who would choose not to be bound by a "cultural law" because they have come to disagree with that group. If you decide you want to leave the Catholic church because you feel their strictures on divorce or birth control do not align with your own values, then it is the responsibility of the society you live in to protect your ability to leave such an organization on your terms.

It is that last bit, letting people say "You know, I don't believe this is the right way to do things, I'm out of here." which is the essence of the rule of law having supremacy over the "laws" that a particular organization or group subscribe to. It makes those cultural laws voluntary rather than mandatory. And that undermines the authority of a religious figure to command your behavior and punish you for disobeying.

We call it Freedom of Religion but really it is Freedom from Religion. The right to choose to participate in a religious group, and to stop participating if you feel that is the right thing. Sure the group can excommunicate you but that is the limit of their "right" to retaliate, basically to not let you back into their organization.

There is nothing specific about this conflict of values. We have extremist Christian, extremist Jewish, and extremist Islamic groups. I would expect there are extremist Hindu and Buddhist groups as well although I don't know of any. But I do believe the battle here, both in the US with Christians and abroad with other religions, is about the idea that people should have the right to choose their own religion, and the right to choose no religion, and that the only laws which are mandatory to follow are the ones that we have arrived at collectively through a system where the government answers to the governed.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will believe whatever it is that they want to believe, religious texts can be twisted to support just about any position, or the opposite to that position.

I think the outermost comment made a great point that religion is basically a tool to manipulate people, to make them make irrational moves. After all, if you want people to move rationally, you make rational suggestions, otherwise even if people are doing the right thing, they're doing it due to irrational reasons. When people are made to do good things due to irrational reasons, they may be made to do bad things du…

There are several elements here. First, most people are not rational, and they can't be motivated by rational deduction. Most people simply do not have the intellectual horsepower to overcome their emotional perspectives and rationalize themselves into good decisions, even when the essential data is present. This invalidates "just be rational" as a practical solution to social welfare.

Second, the essential data is rarely objective or complete. There are very few datasets where a subjective value judgment on some information can be avoided; if you incorrectly devalue some data, your "rational decision" can turn out to be very problematic indeed. So not only are most humans incapable of performing basic rational deduction, they also often lack the perspective necessary to adequately value a subjective dataset, where "adequate" means interpreting it to be compatible with general social cohesion and happiness.

The tried and true traditions of the previous generations of a successful society may err in some smaller things, but in most things, they will be reliable. Young adults (All of this culminates in "religion" or something very close to it, and it's essential to social stability. If you don't provide one, a replacement will automatically generate. People will find and adopt a belief system as absolutes. You can see this in the "secularist" society of today, that adopts what they perceive to be "scientific consensus" as effective religious tenets, or in the "social equality" segment that adopts their interpretation of "diversity and equality" as effective religious tenets.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are using the "someone did some bad things some time ago (and now that I've put things into perspective for you), lets allow another someone do another something bad right now, because it's only fare!" argument. So many misunderstandings I don't know where to start. First, did I say anywhere "lets allow another someone do another something bad right now, because it's only fare!"? No, and that's why you didn't d…

> Second, I don't try to justify or excuse (I mean, Jesus!), just to put in perspective and explain . That's the point, you are putting in perspective unrelated things and unrelated places and unrelated times... None of the events you listed are related to the polling results that almost half of Muslims think that death should be the penalty for apostasy. That's something inherent to the ideology and its resulting cu…

In America, some 28% of christians are biblical literalists of the "God said it, I believe it, that settles it sort"

So they probably would agree with this passage from their bible: Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you … Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.”

So... Yea. Oh, and in the 80s in high school, I had a loaded gun held to my head and was told that if I did t believe in god (which god??!!) I must surely be worshipping satan. (The kid with the gun was pulled away by his friends. Lest I forget to mention it, this was a school in Texas. Somehow that is relevant, I'm sure.)

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what is my ideology then? That violence is a means of last resort? That problems should be tackled at the root, not by attacking the symptoms? That religion - which I personally do not subscribe to - has problems, no matter where but that freedom of speech automatically implies freedom of religion and so it's here to stay and will have to be accommodated, in all it's forms? Pick some, they're all true. Bombing ci…

> no matter where but that freedom of speech automatically implies freedom of religion and so it's here to stay and will have to be accommodated, in all its forms? Depends on the way to go. If you're going for 100% freedom of speech then you'll have to accept things like the WBC or Neonazi hate speech Now if you're going for what happens in Europe then going agains hate speech should work for all forms of hate speech…

> If you're going for 100% freedom of speech then you'll have to accept things like the WBC or Neonazi hate speech

I'm fine with that. I'd rather have such sores out in the open than underground where they can rot and fester that much more efficiently.

It also shows them for the idiots they are instead of being able to isolate their wanna-be company into a nice little echo-chamber.

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