Last I heard, they were doing this to avenge their countrymen. In fact, we don't really know all the whos and the whys , we just know the whats . And what happened was a horrible thing that needs to be investigated, pored over, and responded to in a measured, rational way that doesn't become a nationstate-enabled revenge plot.
When you avenge your countrymen, you avenge by killing the people at fault... not innocent folks enjoying a concert.
> It's not intentional but I doubt ISIS sympathisers see the distinction.
I don't see the distinction either. If you drop a bomb and kill some people that you didn't intend to kill, you're still 100% responsible for those kills.
It is the saddest thing that we have found no better response to terrorism than limiting civil liberties and sending 18 year old boys with guns to foreign countries.
Refugees carry little more than their shirts in their travels. Those guns and grenades didn't come with refugees. End of story.
They also carry their religion, genes and culture. And with that comes a clash of civilisations. With open gates: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cb0_1447249820
> Multiculturalism has never, at any time in human history, worked anywhere
What a load of complete and utter nonsense. I am embarrassed to even see that link on this site.
Multiculturalism is working just fine in Australia right now. In fact it is largely how this country was built. And just like most Western countries we have a fringe right who are xenophobic and anti immigrant but by and large the population welcomes different cultures and the benefits they bring.
It's really important to understand the Muslim community in France, and not evoke false connections. We don't know if the attackers had anything to with the flux of Syrian migrants moving across Europe now, but my guess would be: they had nothing to do with it. There are about 5 million Muslims in France, which accounts for about 7 percent of France's total population. France has deep, long-standing and often trouble…
Not that it makes up for it, but France also committed state-sponsored terrorism (by any definition of the word) in New Zealand in the 80's. Though they only killed one person with their bomb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
Please stop with the Rainbow Warrior story, it's true but not proportional. US has attacked Irak by producing false proof of WMD at UN, for God's sake! All states rely on secret agents, only its intensity varies, and I would not classify the Rainbow Warrior as FUD.
Arm your citizens. Edit: Seems HN would rather die on their knees. Shame.
I fail to see how arming citizens would prevent bombs from blowing them up. What the hell is wrong with people, suggesting guns as a solution to unpredictable violent situations where guns wouldn't make any difference. You arm citizens, now what? Shoot anyone that looks mildly suspicious? Hear a bomb go off, you take out your gun then scare the shit out of people surrounding you, then get shot by somebody else that t…
Apparently, armed citizens can help in some cases. Three armed people stopped a nuthead shooting in train in France:
I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…
If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they…
How do you know? Imagine another 700m people even poorer than they are now. That might breed extremism
I'm sure western meddling can explain some of the extremist responses, but I'm not sure it can explain all of them.
>You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. In my opinion, this is the most dangerous statement in this thread. Saying the actions of these people is irrational loses any ability to understand why they're doing what they're doing and how we can stop them. It turns them into a faceless enemy who are doing things because of hate, which is easy and makes my ego feel better, but doesn't really explain…
I agree that with asymmetrical warfare resorting to terrorism is rational. What seems irrational is our inability to recognize the struggle of our enemy for what it's worth and our refusal to negotiate. I can't think of an example where negotiations (as in granting that your partner in negotiations is your peer) haven't led to a net positive outcome. To take but one example close to home: The Soviet Union was founded…
> Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe. Not hard to get, but when you're talking about dozens of assault rifles, someone somewhere will know what is going where. If your intelligence people are worth their salt, of course. > whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees". Yeah, because it's extremely effective to drop your people for months in a Turkish refugee camp, hopi…
Since the end of the war in former Yugoslavia and the fall of the former USSR Europe is awash with arms of all shapes and sizes. Automatic weapons caches are uncovered with scary regularity and it is not hard to imagine at all that groups with sufficient money can gain access to assault weapons in relatively large numbers.
I have never heard of this, which is scary in itself. Or maybe it isn't, I don't really know. Do you know of any further reading for me?
> lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible. This argument is so stupid. Everyone is blaming the people responsible. That's a given. The reason people are blaming Israel and the US is because they are indirectly responsible since their actions are used as recruitment tools.
The US, France, and other European countries I can actually understand, since these countries performed military operations in Iraq and/or Syria, but I'll be very surprised if Israel is used as a recruiting tool. If you have some sources implying this I'm interested in reading them!
Why would you be surprised Israel's persecution of the Palestinians would be a recruiting tool ? It's a major issue for almost every Muslim worldwide. ISIS have absolutely been recruiting on the back of this and I've seen recruits from Australia even mention it when interviewed.
> I'm not convinced that people linking immigrants and terrorism are particularly worried about the actual immigrants turning out to be terrorists in disguise. You'd be really surprised. Your point is a valid one, but one I seldom see brought up - most people are just worried that for every 100 immigrants there's a couple of actual terrorists in the lot... Mostly because nobody's told them how stupid that notion is.
Well, it is possible that ISIS would try to infiltrate operators this way (in fact, they caught a convicted terrorist in Italy hiding as a refugee a few days ago).
Possible, yes. Efficient, not really. If they don't get in this way they'll get in another way - closing down borders is about just as efficient as the ban on drugs at stoping drug cartels.
I am afraid. Seriously. I'm scared about my life and life of my family, and the civilization we enjoy in Europe. There was a lot of mess already with the current immigration crisis. Now add that attack, and like you said, it's a powder keg, except I'm afraid that this shooting may have just lit the fuse. People will be connecting those two issues. They already are, judging from things that start popping up on my Face…
>I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. I fear the Europe will split, or start a war with someone, or draconian security measures will be introduced by the government. so... As an American who is old enough to very clearly remember America both before and after the 9/11 attacks? to the extent that America is like France, I can speak some to those fears. We did several of those things. We ma…
The risk in France is for the battle to happen on its land. There is a lot of racism and there is also a lot of e.g. Algerian people burning the French flag here and a lot of resentment. There are most well-integrated and well-considered Muslim people here, but there is also a minority we've completely lost. Each year the FN (extremist party) has more votes and after 2 terrorist attacks, it is a real possibility that they get elected for President 2017. From there, police arrests (of actually guilty people, but focused on a minority) can become routine, counter protests will be routine too, protest squashing will be routine, and the uproar can be as fast as a few days after the election.