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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#381

Post by mc32 »

ojbyrne wrote: post #225
n0us wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data on terrorist attacks does not support this conclusion. Terrorism is rarely effective in its political goals and studies have concluded that it is not a rational or cost effective strategy.

Citation needed. The US and Israel are 2 rather successful examples of countries born out of terrorism.

An insurrection might include some terrorism but they also include a swell and majority of guerrilla foot soldiers whose purpose is to bring their agenda to a close. They don't just go about rampaging and killing without strategy.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#382

Post by plonh »

leothekim wrote: post #353
Asbostos wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that have any value beyond reinforcing people's irrational fear of mass deaths? What if you let your family know you're not one of the 100 killed in this attack then die as one of the 600 murdered in France each year by common crime? I saw this happen with the London bombings. A colleague was almost in tears because her son lived in London and she couldn't contact him on the phone. It turned out he was fine, as…

You answered your question without even realizing it. It is always ok to care about your loved one, and it is always ok to reach back out to let them know you're ok, no matter the medium, no matter the circumstance. It is not irrational, it is human. A college classmate on 9/11 died in the Windows of the World restaurant. Her death may be a statistic to you, but it is not to me. I remember trying to call friends in N…

But Facebook only activates Safety Check on special occasions.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#383

Post by aianus »

n0us wrote: post #187
rquantz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

The data on terrorist attacks does not support this conclusion. Terrorism is rarely effective in its political goals and studies have concluded that it is not a rational or cost effective strategy.

We don't call it terrorism when it's effective, we retroactively apply terms like "revolution" and "war of independence" instead.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#384

Post by ngneer »

iMark wrote: post #91
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if I could keep a motivation like that if, for example, my family was killed by a drone strike.

I'd try - seriously. I don't know who came up with "an eye-for-eye and tooth-for-tooth would lead to a world of the blind and toothless" but I believe it. I'm sure it's something I'd struggle with when the hard choice arises, but I honestly believe I'd try to keep to it.

Ghandi "came up with it"

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#385

Post by deciplex »

dang wrote: post #350
imaginenore wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did stay factual, I even provided a link. If you're going to restrict speech, restrict all mentions of religion, not just the ones that contradict your preconceived notion.

The part I quoted was not factual and was a slur.

It's not a slur against Islam in the slightest, it's a supposition, with a link in support of it. If one-third of a population supports or tolerates a heinous thing, then it is not unreasonable to claim that the reason the population has a reputation for supporting or tolerating the heinous thing, is that one-third of them actually do support or tolerate it. I don't think it would be particularly controversial to say "American whites in the 50s had a reputation for racism" due to widespread support of Jim Crow and segregation, even if those things were not actually supported by the majority, but only a significant minority. So it goes here.

My takeaway from it would be "why does one-third of this population support this heinous thing?" but it's impossible to have that conversation with people like you piping in and asserting that any interpretation of data that could offend anyone's sensibilities, is off limits.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#386

Post by downandout »

benihana wrote: post #363
bedhead wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

>You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. In my opinion, this is the most dangerous statement in this thread. Saying the actions of these people is irrational loses any ability to understand why they're doing what they're doing and how we can stop them. It turns them into a faceless enemy who are doing things because of hate, which is easy and makes my ego feel better, but doesn't really explain…

They are doing what they are doing because they have interpreted their primary religious text as explicitly instructing them to kill people that don't believe as they do. Killing another human being that poses no threat to you, regardless of what books you like to read or what instructions you believe they contain, is absolutely irrational - regardless of your "goal". Rational people have no way of understanding these actions, nor should they.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#387

Post by mikeash »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #375
mikeash wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we at least wait until people start saying these things before we complain? I'm getting tired of seeing a bunch of comments complaining about other people supposedly making arguments of which I see no trace.

"Howdy, lefties? Still arguing for disarming the citizens and letting in imigrants without control?" -- a (translation of a) friend's post on Facebook I just saw. Yes, they will make those comments. They always do, even if nothing is happening.

Yes, and they should be kept to Facebook and news article comment sections where they belong, not brought preemptively here.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#388

Post by pbhjpbhj »

auntienomen wrote: post #366
imaginenore wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know exactly who they are: islamists. We have video recordings where you can hear them yelling "allahu Akbar" while shooting. 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...

42% is appalling, but so what? What's your conclusion? (Recall that a majority of Americans have no problem with dropping bombs on foreign civilians.)

>a majority of Americans have no problem with dropping bombs on foreign civilian //

What's your reference here? I'd be quite shocked if people "had no problem" with such actions; "felt they were justified" is entirely believable however.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#389

Post by TeMPOraL »

jmspring wrote: post #13

The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.

I am afraid. Seriously. I'm scared about my life and life of my family, and the civilization we enjoy in Europe.

There was a lot of mess already with the current immigration crisis. Now add that attack, and like you said, it's a powder keg, except I'm afraid that this shooting may have just lit the fuse. People will be connecting those two issues. They already are, judging from things that start popping up on my Facebook feed.

I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. I fear the Europe will split, or start a war with someone, or draconian security measures will be introduced by the government. Charlie Hebdo was symbolic. This was a real terror strike. I just hope that sanity prevails and we won't amplify the damage further.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#390

Post by rayiner »

bedhead wrote: post #109
djfm wrote: post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

It's not irrational. It's terrible, but it's a conscious and thought out attack on French social order, and a purposeful political statement. Which makes it far worse.
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