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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#521

Post by cronjobber »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #421
Kequc wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me for the first line. But then you clarified throughout the rest of your post that the reason you are scared is that you are afraid of the west. Can you bend over any further backwards, in any way at all, would that be possible.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Me and my family are in no immediate danger now . We don't live near France. But between the war in Ukraine (actually quite closer to my home) and immigration crisis, the perceived tension is pretty high. I am afraid because things like this tend to spiral out of control, and society is a fragile thing.

Very probably this:

> I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments.

This is pretty much the standard official and media reaction to these kind of events. You're supposed to fear the "backlash" more than the terrorism. Yes, dear French people, this was bad, but the real catastrophe would be voting for Le Pen or ending Mid-East and African immigration.

That's what the OP probably meant. If you think about it, don't you think it is a somewhat unnatural reaction to being under attack, to always end up fearing those who didn't initiate the attack?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#522

Post by mercurial »

0mbre wrote: post #503
benihana wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. In my opinion, this is the most dangerous statement in this thread. Saying the actions of these people is irrational loses any ability to understand why they're doing what they're doing and how we can stop them. It turns them into a faceless enemy who are doing things because of hate, which is easy and makes my ego feel better, but doesn't really explain…

Killing innocent, helpless people IS irrational. Period

It's irrational if you do it for kicks. It's rational if you expect a strategic advantage for your group/nation-state out of it. Whether it is moral to do is an entirely different discussion.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#523

Post by sirrocco »

hyperliner wrote: post #433
sirrocco wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please give an example of a US terrorist attack on a theater/school/whatever when the citizens stopped the attack.

>> Please give an example of a US terrorist attack on a theater/school/whatever when the citizens stopped the attack. ----- Here are 12. http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/1...

Ok, so there are some cases where it helped stop the attack. Going a step further, how many of those had AKs and maybe bullet proof vests? Should everyone have armor piercing bullets too?

How many of the attacks happened because it was easy to get guns in the first place?

A terrorist will always be able to procure guns. But what about an unhappy employee, an angry teenager ?

Arming people is no solution to terrorism.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#524

Post by chroma »

Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #131
13thLetter wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maaaaaaaybe wait until the bodies have cooled before you start searching for a way to blame the Jews? :(

This has nothing to do with blaming the Jews. The reason for all this carnage is obvious and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.

Obvious? I'm still not following. I can't figure out how somebody goes from, "The US is responsible for the death and suffering of my countrymen." to "Let's kill lots of French civilians."

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#525

Post by TeMPOraL »

cronjobber wrote: post #521
TeMPOraL wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Me and my family are in no immediate danger now . We don't live near France. But between the war in Ukraine (actually quite closer to my home) and immigration crisis, the perceived tension is pretty high. I am afraid because things like this tend to spiral out of control, and society is a fragile thing.

Very probably this: > I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. This is pretty much the standard official and media reaction to these kind of events. You're supposed to fear the "backlash" more than the terrorism. Yes, dear French people, this was bad, but the real catastrophe would be voting for Le Pen or ending Mid-East and African immigration. That's what the OP probably meant. If you think…

> If you think about it, don't you think it is a somewhat unnatural reaction to being under attack, to always end up fearing those who didn't initiate the attack?

It is, but natural reaction is wrong. I still have much bigger chance of dying in a car accident than a terrorist attack. In general, the natural reaction to such events was fine 6000 years ago, but in today's hyperconnected, media-driven society, awareness of a danger is usually inversely proportional to the chance of it happening to you.

But I also know that general population has this natural reaction, and - as politicians follow the voice of people, instead of the voice of reason - it leads to very bad outcomes. I am afraid of those bad outcomes.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#526

Post by warsheep »

gozo wrote: post #511
ofirnachum wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that the majority of the problem will go away with the end of the support of Israel is very wishful thinking. There are many complex causes of events like this and blaming Israel is pure scapegoating.

I don't think it's "pure scapegoating". It's very much a relevant part to understand the mechanics behind thing like this. The French ban on anti-Isreali demonstrations might very well have helped radicalization and recruitment of young people with non-french backgrounds. So might the last years worsening conflict in Palestine. It shouldn't be a particularly controversial statement to say that there are things that I…

A lot of "may" and "might" in your reply, and absolutely no facts. The facts are that on ISIS' agenda, fighting Palestinian groups such as Hamas has a higher priority than fighting Israel [1][2], yet people in this thread still manage to "lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible, as if these people are incapable of independent thought.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/middleeast/isis-abu-...

[2] http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-st...

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#527

Post by Abraln »

anardil wrote: post #446
da1 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please stop this pointless killing. I think by definition this anything but pointless.

What do you mean by this?

Not the gp, but "pointless" killing would be more like someone killing people because they were bored and had nothing better to do. Extremism is all about ideals inspiring action. The hate and retorhic IS the point for them, even if flawed. I think "senseless" killing/violence is a better descriptor.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#528

Post by mercurial »

e12e wrote: post #247
vonnik wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stand corrected. Thank you. A terrorist attack killing more than 100 happened in 1961, during the Algerian war for independence.

And not to detract from your points above, there's been terror attacks on "both" sides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

That was a pretty nasty time. The French military tortured and assassinated on very large scale in Algeria (thousands of people). On the other side, the FLN was fighting a guerilla war, combined with terrorist actions (mostly bombings) against civilian targets. To compound this, once De Gaulle announced that Algeria would be become independent, hardliners from the military as well as from the Pieds-Noir community (people living in Algeria of French descent) formed a terrorist group known as OAS, targeting both FLN, Algerian civilians and French authorities (including attempts to kill De Gaulle).

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#529

Post by TeMPOraL »

lsc wrote: post #517
TeMPOraL wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am afraid. Seriously. I'm scared about my life and life of my family, and the civilization we enjoy in Europe. There was a lot of mess already with the current immigration crisis. Now add that attack, and like you said, it's a powder keg, except I'm afraid that this shooting may have just lit the fuse. People will be connecting those two issues. They already are, judging from things that start popping up on my Face…

>I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. I fear the Europe will split, or start a war with someone, or draconian security measures will be introduced by the government. so... As an American who is old enough to very clearly remember America both before and after the 9/11 attacks? to the extent that America is like France, I can speak some to those fears. We did several of those things. We ma…

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

> I mean, we didn't split, but we did pick a war with a country who's people kind of looked like the people who attacked us

The problem here is that 'people who kind of look like the people who attacked us' are not foreign, they're here, in Europe. The hot topic of past months was the waves of immigration, and before that it was Islam minorities. I fear that people will retaliate on those communities and it will turn into a civil war. Or even if not, the tension between policies of various European countries RE immigration were high, and overreaction here may just be enough to split us apart.

> My thoughts at the time were the opposite of yours. It did not occur to me that this was going to change my country; It took me quite some time to understand that this was hugely impactfull.

My experiences are informed by what happened to your country over the last 14 years. I've learned that such events can be very impactful.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#530

Post by m_mueller »

aianus wrote: post #499
m_mueller wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this relativism disconcerting. Please explain how targeting innocent civilians for their ethnicity or beliefs is equal to military vs. military operations. Most of the world is shades of grey but one has to recognize when an ideology is clearly a danger to human society and needs to be fought against. Whether and how violent the means need to be is up for discussion, I just can't understand why people would do…

> Please explain how targeting innocent civilians for their ethnicity or beliefs is equal to military vs. military operations. It's not. I'm sure the terrorists would actually prefer to be shooting soldiers and high-ranking politicians instead of innocent civilians. But since those targets are too well protected, in their minds the only thing they can do to retaliate against their enemies is to commit terrorist attac…

All warfaring nations have committed atrocities, I'm not denying that and I'd be the first to condemn these actions if they'd be discussed now. What I'm unconvinced of is whether Americans would put their own personal survival lower than the prospect of martyrdom, as long as they don't get indoctrinated by religious beliefs of this sort. It's a similar argument of whether the Nazis or the Khmer Rouge were just a product of their circumstances - no, I don't think so. Their ideology was actively warped to a point where it was detrimental to human survival, detrimental to what our biology tells us to do, and something everyone with a clear mind is IMO obligated to stand up against.

There's a difference between terrorism with clear political goals and terrorism that's targeted at our very way of life. One can be attributed to circumstances and can be dealt with in a more or less peaceful matters (e.g. 'give them what they want'), the other cannot.

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