Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say • Hacker News Board

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#171

Post by asasasasasas » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:46 AM UTC

conradk wrote: post #163

livatlantis wrote: post #100

In Paris right now. We are in shock. At both the scale and the extremely coordinated nature of the attacks on civilians at multiple locations. I work near rue Bichat and Le Petit Cambodge, a warm little restaurant in the 10e that my colleagues and I frequent, where people were tonight killed. The Bataclan is a well-known concert venue for metal bands, where I've seen several bands play live. Les Halles is at the cent…

Actually, this is not the first time that France has declared a state of emergency. It was declared in 1984 and 2005. And it was declared in Algeria in the 1950s and 1960s.

The OP meant that this is the first time since WWII that France has closed its borders, which is true.

For those curious about 2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_riots#State_of_eme...

Edit: I was wrong, the President said the borders were closed, but then clarified that they weren't.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#172

Post by toyg » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:46 AM UTC

buserror wrote: post #124

toyg wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be the case, but this particular strain of craziness was well-publicised and even experienced less than a year ago in the same place. One would expect some antibodies would have been developed by now, especially considering that French foreign policy is not getting any softer.

The problem is that the 'foreign' policy is irrelevant. The 'foreign' policy is made to appear the state is 'doing something' while MOST of the problem has been in the country for many, many years. Most of the problem is that the youngsters of immigrant stock have not been integrated, and have nothing else to do than turn to crime and/or religion, so are just RIPE for radicalism... And there's little the state can do…

Of course craziness can explode in many ways, but denying that foreign policy is a huge trigger is just disingenuous. How many suicide bombers have you seen in Canada or Sweden? And they have a huge migrant population, larger than France in percentage terms, with various degrees of (non-)integration. But they don't set other countries on fire nor they usually bomb anyone, so they don't get hit by paramilitary networks.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#173

Post by coldcode » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

Right now we don't know who these people are, where they came from and what their aims were (besides terror). Of course terror is exactly this, you don't know, you imagine the worst, and everyone reacts, often pointlessly. I wonder why France?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#174

Post by itaifrenkel » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #32

hyperliner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all craziness is preventable by a security system.

That might be the case, but this particular strain of craziness was well-publicised and even experienced less than a year ago in the same place. One would expect some antibodies would have been developed by now, especially considering that French foreign policy is not getting any softer.

It took Israel security services around 3 years, to stop most bombing and rifle attacks. They are better funded and staffed (forced conscription larger in scope than in France) and that didn't help either . Eventually a massive wall was built (ideologically neither party supported, which gave rise to opportunistic and most corrupt politicians) and as enough of the voters didnt approve with the results the army got approval for countless ground and air raids. The end result was a young generation filled with hatered torwards Israel, now finding other ways to attack.

My point is that to expect security forces to stop such attacks is reasonable up to a point. Escelation on one side builds escelation on the other and eventually its becomes an established norm. The problem Europe has is real, and difficult, tragic.

My heart is with those in Paris, France and Europe . I cannot sleep.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#175

Post by jayess » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

Clearly more NSA surveillance is needed.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#176

Post by vonnik » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

tonfa wrote: post #159

vonnik wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really important to understand the Muslim community in France, and not evoke false connections. We don't know if the attackers had anything to with the flux of Syrian migrants moving across Europe now, but my guess would be: they had nothing to do with it. There are about 5 million Muslims in France, which accounts for about 7 percent of France's total population. France has deep, long-standing and often trouble…

Correction: 1995 attacks killed 8 and injured 100 (Puts the current attack in perspective, I don't think anything similar ever happened)

I stand corrected. Thank you. A terrorist attack killing more than 100 happened in 1961, during the Algerian war for independence.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#177

Post by vezzy-fnord » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

RogtamBar wrote: post #84

dragonwriter wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can a country possibly prevent these things while still maintaining a free society? You can't even prevent them when not being a free society. Its not like terrorism only occurs in free societies.

This is bullshit and you know this. There is very little chance of anyone successfully getting up to terrorism if society is a) riddled with informers b) detaining people without charges is legal c) totalitarian ideology and political supremacy makes the establishment of parallel societies impossible. Border controls make importing terrorists next to impossible. The former eastern Bloc had no terrorist incidents. Pul…

Usually in such a society the state is the terrorist.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#178

Post by dlss » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:49 AM UTC

rquantz wrote: post #134

bedhead wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

Terrorism is usually a rational act. It is terrible, but it has political goals. This, for instance, may be aimed at ending the European involvement in Syria and their taking in refugees.

> Which will come first, flying cars and vacations to Mars, or a simple acknowledgment that beliefs guide behavior and that certain religious ideas—jihad, martyrdom, blasphemy, apostasy—reliably lead to oppression and murder? It may be true that no faith teaches people to massacre innocents exactly—but innocence, as the President surely knows, is in the eye of the beholder. Are apostates “innocent”? Blasphemers? Polytheists? Islam has the answer, and the answer is “no.”

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sleepwalking-toward-armag...

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#179

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:49 AM UTC

13thLetter wrote: post #120

Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they…

Maaaaaaaybe wait until the bodies have cooled before you start searching for a way to blame the Jews? :(

[deleted]

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#180

Post by teleclimber » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:49 AM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #161

The war on terror has been going on for 15 years now - are there more terrorists in 2000 or 2015? Sooner or later, we will have to come to the realization that terrorism cannot be eliminated by force. Stop destabilizing Arab countries, stop imperial interference in Northern Africa, and perhaps we'll see an end to this nonsense.

I agree with you. Unfortunately these attacks tend to strengthen the resolve of the people who want to reshape the middle East.

The other complicating factor is that not-intervening will mean sitting on our hands while civilian populations get badly treated by their governments.

What to do? what to do? I don't know the answer.