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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#411

Post by aianus »

imaginenore wrote: post #291
e12e wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that if you did a survey of disenfranchised white youth in the US, you'd find a lot of people volunteering to enlist, and you could probably get some sympathy for the need to "go kill ISIS" or some other media-oriented headline. France has many issues, I doubt any of them are truly deeply connected to Islam. But it is of course easier to point at religion as the source of civil unrest, rather than at a faili…

ISIS is a jihadist terrorist organization, and that's recognized by most governments, many Islamic ones even. It's dishonest to compare openly fighting ISIS with blowing up and shooting civilians as a primary mean. What happened today was not "civil unrest".

> It's dishonest to compare openly fighting ISIS with blowing up and shooting civilians as a primary mean.

That's all well and good to say when you know enlisting in the US military in conventional warfare against ISIS has a good chance of succeeding.

But what if the US was the small poor state and ISIS was the world's largest economy whose military targets were too well-defended to attack?

I'm sure you'd find lots of recruits in Texas for "guerilla special units behind enemy lines". Especially if cruise missiles and drone strikes were hitting US soil every other day.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#412

Post by laichzeit0 »

Bud wrote: post #298

Latest breakdown of fatalities available, from CNN and other sources: 114 and still rising at the Bataclan theater 19 at Le Belle Equipe bar 14 at the Cambodian restaurant 4 in the area of the Avenue de la Republique 4 outside the Stade de France (remarkably low death toll here given that there were two suicide bombers there)

It would be interesting to see the number of wounded. There is usually a disproportionate amount of people wounded vs fatalities.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#413

Post by downandout »

spdustin wrote: post #396
downandout wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing what they are doing because they have interpreted their primary religious text as explicitly instructing them to kill people that don't believe as they do. Killing another human being that poses no threat to you, regardless of what books you like to read or what instructions you believe they contain, is absolutely irrational - regardless of your "goal". Rational people have no way of understanding thes…

Last I heard, they were doing this to avenge their countrymen. In fact, we don't really know all the whos and the whys , we just know the whats . And what happened was a horrible thing that needs to be investigated, pored over, and responded to in a measured, rational way that doesn't become a nationstate-enabled revenge plot.

This is ISIS, at least that's the best guess of most of the experts being quoted in the media (and most rational observers of world news).

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#414

Post by demallien »

scrollaway wrote: post #275
iMark wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe Islam is fundamentally different than Christianity. Present day interpretations aside, I believe both share a similar DNA. I believe the solution is to look inward (as I've already, "do no harm"), rather than to condemn outwards. And yes, I'm willing to concede the naiveté of my viewpoint.

I agree, I hope my comment was not misinterpreted. Most muslims believe in "do no harm", and every single one I've talked to thinks those terrorists are the exact opposite of true muslims. Those attacks done "in the name of islam" create islamophobic reactions from people. Media spreads this islamophobia further, to people who just trust whatever they see on TV. The climate grows to marginalize muslims further. The o…

I'm not convinced that people linking immigrants and terrorism are particularly worried about the actual immigrants turning out to be terrorists in disguise. It's more a worry that they will just add to the ghettoisation of Islamic communities, which is precisely where this latest crop of French terrorists seem to have sprung from.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#415

Post by j-conn »

imaginenore wrote: post #217
cryptica wrote: post #137

This soils the reputation of islam. I know some good people (muslims) who suffer from prejudice on a daily basis because of attacks like these. Being a muslim in a foreign country is an increasingly difficult and isolating experience.

Islam soils the reputation of islam. It has a massive problem of large percentages of Muslims supporting (or being okay with) violence and terrorism. 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...

Would love to hear from the people down-voting. Is this data flawed / limited / not consistent with personal experience? I've heard people like Bill Maher cite this survey before. I'm sure there are different and interesting perspectives in the HN community-- please don't just reflexively downvote or avoid addressing this because it's uncomfortable.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#417

Post by scrollaway »

demallien wrote: post #414
scrollaway wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I hope my comment was not misinterpreted. Most muslims believe in "do no harm", and every single one I've talked to thinks those terrorists are the exact opposite of true muslims. Those attacks done "in the name of islam" create islamophobic reactions from people. Media spreads this islamophobia further, to people who just trust whatever they see on TV. The climate grows to marginalize muslims further. The o…

I'm not convinced that people linking immigrants and terrorism are particularly worried about the actual immigrants turning out to be terrorists in disguise. It's more a worry that they will just add to the ghettoisation of Islamic communities, which is precisely where this latest crop of French terrorists seem to have sprung from.

> I'm not convinced that people linking immigrants and terrorism are particularly worried about the actual immigrants turning out to be terrorists in disguise.

You'd be really surprised. Your point is a valid one, but one I seldom see brought up - most people are just worried that for every 100 immigrants there's a couple of actual terrorists in the lot... Mostly because nobody's told them how stupid that notion is.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#418

Post by fein »

NotHereNotThere wrote: post #231
fein wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arm your citizens. Edit: Seems HN would rather die on their knees. Shame.

I fail to see how arming citizens would prevent bombs from blowing them up. What the hell is wrong with people, suggesting guns as a solution to unpredictable violent situations where guns wouldn't make any difference. You arm citizens, now what? Shoot anyone that looks mildly suspicious? Hear a bomb go off, you take out your gun then scare the shit out of people surrounding you, then get shot by somebody else that t…

There were active shooters in this instance.

Not much you can do about bombs, see Timothy McVeigh.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#419

Post by q3k »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #389
jmspring wrote: post #13

The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.

I am afraid. Seriously. I'm scared about my life and life of my family, and the civilization we enjoy in Europe. There was a lot of mess already with the current immigration crisis. Now add that attack, and like you said, it's a powder keg, except I'm afraid that this shooting may have just lit the fuse. People will be connecting those two issues. They already are, judging from things that start popping up on my Face…

> I am afraid. Seriously.

This is exactly what the attackers want you to be. Don't let them win.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#420

Post by kid0m4n »

We visited France/Paris for our marriage anniversary back in June; and the city left a lasting impression on for over the course of 4 days.

All I can say is; don't change your fundamentals. Then they have won. It's just a larger version of your bitcoin demanding DDOS bandits. Once you give in, humanity will fail.

I am more worried about the innocent people who are going to suffer because of this.

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