We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it • Hacker News Board

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#81

Post by vlehto » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:02 PM UTC

redmaverick wrote: post #57

I was born and brought up in India and have lived in the U.S for around 6+ years before finally returning back home recently. Living outside your own country for a significant length time is pretty mind expanding. This is what I have realized: Culture is a very real thing. A lot of the thoughts that we have are not really our own. They are a product of the culture around you. It is pretty incredible to observe. This…

In Finland one of the surefire offensive things to ask a person is "how much do you make?". The person cannot answer that "right" even if he lies. Any income threshold will make you either capitalist pig, or poor loser in someones eye. And you never know when and who thinks that.

Our independence started with communist vs. capitalist war and continued with Finns vs. Soviet war. Some people still think that if you belong to the wrong class, you are almost a murderer. (Asking about party affiliation is taboo too.)

So people find it very interesting because it's taboo. Older generation of men assume that you spend your excess income in cars. And they talk a lot about cars.

EDIT: It's still nice place to visit. But if you are filthy Audi man, stay home! :P

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#82

Post by lobster_johnson » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:06 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #65

drumdance wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think international travel should be mandatory, especially for US citizens. The longest I've stayed anywhere overseas is a month, but even a few days in another country can be eye-opening.

Transatlantic roundtrip airfare for a family of 4 at a time kids will have off from school is around $5500. That's before you start getting places to sleep for any appreciable amount of time, car rentals or train tickets (which are quite expensive), etc. Median income in the US is around $50,000. $7-8k is a family car, most of somebody's student loan balance, the entire electronics budget for ~5 years. You want them…

> Transatlantic roundtrip airfare ... is around $5500.

That sounds steep to me. On a lark I checked out Norwegian's [1] prices for 2 adults, 2 children roundtrip on dates around winter break:

LAX-CPH: $1,550

JFK-OSL: $1,400

Both non-stop. Of course, if you not near one of the larger transportation hubs, there'll be some additional cost.

[1] https://www.norwegian.no/us/

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#83

Post by togetherasone » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:10 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #35

One of my biggest eureka-moments I had when I moved to the states from Denmark — wasn't what I learned about the US — but what I learned about Denmark. I suddenly saw things about my own culture clearly when I wasn't surrounded by confirmation bias of specific ways of looking at things. One of the most eye-opening experiences for me; If you wan't to understand something you need to understand it through things that a…

> If you wan't to understand something you need to understand it through things that are related to it not the things themselves.

If I do not understand 'x,' then how would I know what is related to 'x'?

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#84

Post by vlehto » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:14 PM UTC

vlehto wrote: post #22

Some of my friends report how eating certain mushrooms made the super creative. I have asked what they created? Nothing. The reason why they think they we're creative is because they felt creative. This article made similar thing for me with respect to learning. I feel like I learned something. But I really don't remember what.

For some reason I can't edit that comment. But I'd like to add that I still upvoted that article. Not because of that article itself, but because of comments here. A decent conversation starter.

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#85

Post by quietplatypus » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:19 PM UTC

redmaverick wrote: post #57

I was born and brought up in India and have lived in the U.S for around 6+ years before finally returning back home recently. Living outside your own country for a significant length time is pretty mind expanding. This is what I have realized: Culture is a very real thing. A lot of the thoughts that we have are not really our own. They are a product of the culture around you. It is pretty incredible to observe. This…

Do you think either culture can make a case for itself being superior? I have witnessed firsthand the abuse and corruption that stems from Asian "family-first, materialistic" approach and honestly believe the American way stands a far better chance of creating someone who has self respect while still being able to function in groups.

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#86

Post by ThomPete » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:20 PM UTC

aturek wrote: post #80

ThomPete wrote: post #35

One of my biggest eureka-moments I had when I moved to the states from Denmark — wasn't what I learned about the US — but what I learned about Denmark. I suddenly saw things about my own culture clearly when I wasn't surrounded by confirmation bias of specific ways of looking at things. One of the most eye-opening experiences for me; If you wan't to understand something you need to understand it through things that a…

What's an example of something you suddenly understood?

Thats hard to explain. But for instance I realized how few problems Denmark have.

I understood why americans was considered superficial while in reality it was just the danes who were shy because they didn't have to establish their own social networks outside of their childhood.

Lots of little things that are hard to explain.

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#87

Post by soylentcola » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:26 PM UTC

gglitch wrote: post #43

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually buy that psychedelics make people more creative. People fall into more predictable mental ruts than random exploration would, so anything that kicks the brain out of the patterns it wants to match to is going to help.

Agree. "Creative," may be a misleading term if interpreted literally and nothing tangible has been created, but colloquially, I think we use the term more to refer to patterns of thought and behavior that derail the self or others from their normal patterns.

Agree. Maybe it comes down to the relationship between "creative" and "productive". They're related without being synonymous. I think "chemically" is just one way of accomplishing the goal of thinking differently but as it's a pretty reliable method (albeit an occasionally overpowered one) it comes up a lot.

I'll leave the discussions of whether the various drawbacks outweigh the benefits for another conversation but it's hard to deny that treating yourself chemically can be a very direct and effective way to ensure your thought patterns and processes are temporarily changed.

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#88

Post by superuser2 » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 9:18 PM UTC

lobster_johnson wrote: post #82

superuser2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transatlantic roundtrip airfare for a family of 4 at a time kids will have off from school is around $5500. That's before you start getting places to sleep for any appreciable amount of time, car rentals or train tickets (which are quite expensive), etc. Median income in the US is around $50,000. $7-8k is a family car, most of somebody's student loan balance, the entire electronics budget for ~5 years. You want them…

> Transatlantic roundtrip airfare ... is around $5500. That sounds steep to me. On a lark I checked out Norwegian's [1] prices for 2 adults, 2 children roundtrip on dates around winter break: LAX-CPH: $1,550 JFK-OSL: $1,400 Both non-stop. Of course, if you not near one of the larger transportation hubs, there'll be some additional cost. [1] https://www.norwegian.no/us/

Those prices sound reasonable... per person. Unfortunately the link is broken for me (403).

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#89

Post by orthoganol » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 9:21 PM UTC

igravious wrote: post #24

orthoganol wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thoroughly enjoy Zizek, and to actually understand him I would recommend reading his work, because the Zizek of cinema or Youtube really is a confusing, tiny glimpse of his thought. I'll also note that he's pretty unpopular in this forum. He can be pretty brutal to thinkers popular here, such as Steven Pinker. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kugiufHh800&feature=youtu.be...

I both agree and disagree with both of your points. Heh : ) a) I think that The Pervert's Guide to Ideology is quite self-contained and digestible without the need to read his (entire) work. There are YouTube clips of some of his talks/lectures that are pretty standalone as well. b) I like Zizek. So he's popular with me for what it's worth. I like Pinker too though. Hmm. Can we not just all get along?

a) I disagree still... let's put it this way, on a forum like r/zizek where people discuss Zizek's positions, it's patently obvious who hasn't actually read Zizek and who just watches YouTube and the Pervert's Guides, which is what a lot of Zizek fans do because they find the reading intimidating (it certainly is, at first). Don't read his entire work, just Less than Nothing, or one of his self-proclaimned important works.

b) We can like and appreciate both (I do too). They are compatible to an extent, but some facets of behavior described from a pure evo psych or cog sci perspective conflict with a Lacanian-Hegelian one. My friend is a Steven Pinker fanatic, and we are in constant debate anytime we meet up for beers.

Re: We can't see our culture very well, because we see with it

#90

Post by vlehto » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 9:30 PM UTC

llamataboot wrote: post #51

Terence McKenna - Culture is Not Your Friend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw_lS6IuLeQ

I think this is great.

He says pretty convincingly that collectivity is bad for us as individuals. And that individualism is bad for us as society.

Then he suggests that we should abandon society so we could act as individuals. And abandon our individual habits to form dream society.

This perfectly shows that he is unable to really understand society or individualism. Which are also essential blocks of our existence. I feel I understand it better, but probably so did he. Maybe none of us understands it.