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Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

independent.co.uk

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Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#151

Post by corin_ »

malka wrote: post #148
ryanlol wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not heroin, but a completely unknown substance presented as heroin that probably consists of around 30% heroin.

30% how generous. In EU the average purity for heroin is ~2%.

Wikipedia states "The average purity of street heroin in the UK varies between 30% and 50% and heroin that has been seized at the border has purity levels between 40% and 60%" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Adverse_effects). It doesn't actually have a citation that confirms that, but another quick google gives http://drugscope.org.uk/how-pure-are-street-drugs/ saying "The 2010/11 police recorded average purity for heroin was 30 per cent."

So I'm inclined to believe the 30% number unless you have a source for thinking it's much lower.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#152

Post by cthalupa »

bcook wrote: post #85
aianus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Herion junkies lead a functional life including work and family? Seriously, what the fuck?! Cite just one source that heroin addiction is controllable because the addict uses "clean" heroin. There are countless rock stars, for example, that maintained families and highly successful careers while regularly using heroin. > Heroin addiction is the problem, not the adulterants, so purity is unimportant. Heroin addictio…

Anecdotes are not a valid citation. Heroin is the most harmful drug, statistically, according to numerous studies.

Diacetylmorphine is probably the best opiate analgesic modern medicine has. British ambulances still carry it as a first-line drug for acute myocardial infarctions. It's an anxiolytic, a wonderful painkiller, and dilates corony arteries. It's not as widely used as it probably should be because of the feat of addiction. Recreational heroin drug use is dangerous because of the illegality - you don't know what you're getting. The varying levels of purity have twofold danger - increasing the risk of overdose due to getting a more pure drug and using the larger dosage you became accustomed to from the less pure stuff, as well as the risk of the substance used to cut the heroin being harmful in itself.

Historically, heroin was used by people that WERE holding down jobs[0].

>According to Dr James Mills, a historian who has traced drug use through the 20th century, they tended to be doctors or middle-class patients who could afford to sustain a habit.

Additionally, if we were to legalize heroin's use, we could sell naloxone packaged alongside the heroin. Naloxone, if you're not familiar, is an opiate antidote that is extremely effective. This would greatly reduce the chance of an overdose having fatal effect.

As I've noted with meth elsewhere in this thread, I'm not suggesting anyone go and pick up a drug habit, but the vast majority of the dangers related to heroin (and most drugs - though obviously stuff like jimson weed is just plain bad for you...) are related to the illegal nature of it, and even those inherent to the drug itself can be mitigated much more easily in a legal setting

[0]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4647018.stm

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#153

Post by anonymousDan »

patrickk wrote: post #145
anonymousDan wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, Ireland has been the fastest growing country in Europe for the last few years. This government has done a pretty good job considering the circumstances. Would you rather they had gone the Greek route for example?

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. The headline figures for Ireland are very misleading. The bond spreads are coming down because Irish banks were bailed out at enormous expense and are buying Irish govt debt. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands have left the place for good due to a lack of opportunity. Many ordinary people are still struggling badly. Ireland and Greece are nothing alike,…

Nah. We were already screwed when this government got in because of the last one. To lay the blame at their door is ridiculous. They did a good job with the hand they were dealt IMHO (particularly Noonan). Furthermore the bond spreads aren't "coming down", they've been next to nothing for a while. Unemployment is still too high but a lot better than it was.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#154

Post by ryanlol »

blumkvist wrote: post #111
bcook wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin addiction is one of the most harmful documented drug-addictions. The need for heroin, physically and psychologically, is the driving force behind the social and personal damage attributed to heroin. People do not get addicted to non-narcotic adulterants and become prostitutes. A cutting agent like caffeine or sugar is probably the safest ingredient...

Caffeine? Sugar? Lol! How about mice poison? Reading wikipedia and actually knowing stuff about drugs are very different things. Please stop posting, you don't have a clue.

The cuts are VERY rarely anything harmful by themselves, that'd be a pretty shitty business move.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#155

Post by ryanlol »

malka wrote: post #148
ryanlol wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not heroin, but a completely unknown substance presented as heroin that probably consists of around 30% heroin.

30% how generous. In EU the average purity for heroin is ~2%.

2% is definitely not accurate, consuming that would be a very unpleasant experience.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#156

Post by DanBC »

ryanlol wrote: post #154
blumkvist wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caffeine? Sugar? Lol! How about mice poison? Reading wikipedia and actually knowing stuff about drugs are very different things. Please stop posting, you don't have a clue.

The cuts are VERY rarely anything harmful by themselves, that'd be a pretty shitty business move.

Some supporting references:

The adulterants and bulking agents cover a wide range of substances.

At the cleaner end you have caffeine (reduces vapour point of heroin), Chloroquine (looks a bit like heroin), and paracetamol.

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2009/June/afghanist...

At the dirtier / dangerous end you have lead (possibly a contaminant from "cooking" vessels, causes serious harm when injected)

http://www.cph.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/cut-a-guide...

The illegal nature of the drugs means there are risks of bacterial / fungal contamination - anthrax, botulism, etc from the drug, but also from household products used to increase the potency. For example, if a heroin user goes to a clinic they'll be provided with clean vitamin C. If they're at home they may use lemon juice.

> In Glasgow 23 heroin users were diagnosed with Candida endophthalmitis (intraocular fungal infection), bio-typing analysis indicated that the lemon juice used to prepare heroin injections was the source of contamination (Shankland & Richardson, 1988). In Spain, contaminated lemon juice was also suspected as the cause of an outbreak of Candida albicans amongst injecting heroin users (Miro et al., 1987).

Probably most relevant:

> As discussed previously, the evidence detailed above suggests that adulterants are added to heroin typically either to (1) dilute the product with benign substances making it less pure and increasing profits, or (2) to enhance the heroin (i.e. to make it more efficient when smoked) (Huizer, 1987). The evidence does not concur with the mythology of the addition of gravel, brick dust, household cleaning products or poisons by unscrupulous drug dealers.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#157

Post by bcook »

corin_ wrote: post #146
bcook wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cite an article that says the purity of heroin is the most dangerous part of heroin use. Just one reputable article. Put up or shutup. I posted 3 well-established papers above if you want some reading.

Here's an interesting brief-read: http://lifeprocessprogram.com/lp-blog/library/the-persistent... Here's a paper about treating opiate addicts with pure heroin and it having positive effects: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2008.... If you read up pretty much any information about the dangers of heroin, you will see that they are overdose (which you can prevent by using the right amounts), risk…

You said "The biggest danger is indeed purity".

Nothing that you referenced says that. Yes, it is a part of any drug use and is a big reason to legalize, but purity is not the biggest danger. The physical and psychological dependance are the biggest problem.

Adulterants are nearly impossible to study, given the unknowns.

Sorry about the "put up or shutup".

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#158

Post by bcook »

DanBC wrote: post #150
bcook wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67... http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67... http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/4/e000774.full.html#T1 There are more, but freely accessing journals online is troublesome. I have NEVER seen any study say heroin is anything but one of the most crippling and dangerous addictions. I am still waiting for anyone to cite one...

Your first one is available here: http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_old/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf Have a read. Do you think it still supports your position? It says, clearly, that alcohol is more harmful than heroin. Are you calling for alcohol to be made illegal? Or: Bob is a heroin addict. Should Bob continue to buy heroin from the street? That heroin will be adulterated; of unknown strength; sold by criminals; and may requir…

I am not saying anything about legalization. I am arguing that heroin is known to be hugely dangerous, and sometimes classified as the most dangerous drug to use.

Yeah, alcohol, meth, crack all rank similarly and should be avoided unless you know are very sure how you will react.

People seem to be confused what my position actually is. That is mostly my fault though...

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#159

Post by blumkvist »

corin_ wrote: post #146
bcook wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cite an article that says the purity of heroin is the most dangerous part of heroin use. Just one reputable article. Put up or shutup. I posted 3 well-established papers above if you want some reading.

Here's an interesting brief-read: http://lifeprocessprogram.com/lp-blog/library/the-persistent... Here's a paper about treating opiate addicts with pure heroin and it having positive effects: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2008.... If you read up pretty much any information about the dangers of heroin, you will see that they are overdose (which you can prevent by using the right amounts), risk…

So... how is the discussion going? Productive? :)

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#160

Post by bcook »

ryanlol wrote: post #142
bcook wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cite an article that says the purity of heroin is the most dangerous part of heroin use. Just one reputable article. Put up or shutup. I posted 3 well-established papers above if you want some reading.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=heroin+overdose+p... Considering purity fluctuations will actually KILL you rather than just make you want more, yeah I'd say that's by far the most dangerous part of street heroin.

I just lost a relative. I would be much more hurt if they were still alive and stealing from me, working as a prostitute, or murdering strangers for a fix. A ruined life is worse than a lost life. Yes, purity is a problem, but it is far from the most impactful potential effects of heroin use.
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