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Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

independent.co.uk

141–150 of 166 posts

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#141
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to have a conversation with you. You don't know the first thing about the subject. Why would I want to talk to you about it?

I don't disagree with you that he's wrong, but arguing without proper arguments then insulting him doesn't really help the conversation. @bcook: Heroin, if it was 100% pure (e.g. as manufactured by a pharmacuticals company), and used with completely safe equipment (e.g. sterylised needles), and used at not-too-high dose levels, it would actually be pretty safe. It essentially has the same effect as morphine or oxycod…

Cite an article that says the purity of heroin is the most dangerous part of heroin use. Just one reputable article. Put up or shutup.

I posted 3 well-established papers above if you want some reading.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#142
post #141
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you that he's wrong, but arguing without proper arguments then insulting him doesn't really help the conversation. @bcook: Heroin, if it was 100% pure (e.g. as manufactured by a pharmacuticals company), and used with completely safe equipment (e.g. sterylised needles), and used at not-too-high dose levels, it would actually be pretty safe. It essentially has the same effect as morphine or oxycod…

Cite an article that says the purity of heroin is the most dangerous part of heroin use. Just one reputable article. Put up or shutup. I posted 3 well-established papers above if you want some reading.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=heroin+overdose+p...

Considering purity fluctuations will actually KILL you rather than just make you want more, yeah I'd say that's by far the most dangerous part of street heroin.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irish guy here (although I live in California now). Demographics, mass abandonment of the Catholic church in recent years (not least due to sex scandals, and the bruising effects of the global financial crisis, which has led to a more pragmatic assessment of priorities. I'm very happy about it too. While I'm not in any rush to head home to the inclement Irish weather it feels like a great validation to see this tide…

Another Irish expat, living in Germany. The cynic in me says the timing of the gay marriage, the abortion referendum on abortion and now this progressive drug stance is the government playing a game of misdirection with the electorate. This current government was elected on the specific promise of fixing the economic mess and getting rid of the disastrous policy of bank debt being hoisted onto the sovereign balance s…

Oh come on, Ireland has been the fastest growing country in Europe for the last few years. This government has done a pretty good job considering the circumstances. Would you rather they had gone the Greek route for example?

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#144

Ignoring the quality of the article, I am struck by one thing. Why has Ireland all of a sudden taken such a progressive shift? First national recognition of gay marriage, now this? I'm loving it, wherever it came from.

It's a nice idea, but I can see the UK leaning on them, hard, not to do this. I can see the arguments now: - People will get the ferry to Ireland and bring them to the UK! - Drug tourism! Amsterdam! Everybody hates Amsterdam! Look at how terrible everything is there! - Think of the children!! - It's not aligned with the UK's policy of increasing criminalisation! - Think of what you'll do to your prison sector! Hopefu…

Can you elaborate on how Amsterdam is terrible?

I recently spent a week day. (Partly on vacation, partly on business.)

I saw a country with great public transport, decent food, a vibrant arts scene, and while yes, the smell of weed was everywhere, people seemed way more laid back. No roving bands of drunk frat bros, no meth tweakers, and police who viewed their job as to increase the enjoyment of all citizens and visitors, rather than generate revenue for the township through fines.

If that's hell, well, call me a Satanist because I'm sold.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another Irish expat, living in Germany. The cynic in me says the timing of the gay marriage, the abortion referendum on abortion and now this progressive drug stance is the government playing a game of misdirection with the electorate. This current government was elected on the specific promise of fixing the economic mess and getting rid of the disastrous policy of bank debt being hoisted onto the sovereign balance s…

Oh come on, Ireland has been the fastest growing country in Europe for the last few years. This government has done a pretty good job considering the circumstances. Would you rather they had gone the Greek route for example?

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. The headline figures for Ireland are very misleading. The bond spreads are coming down because Irish banks were bailed out at enormous expense and are buying Irish govt debt.

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands have left the place for good due to a lack of opportunity. Many ordinary people are still struggling badly. Ireland and Greece are nothing alike, we never went on a spending spree like Greece did, it was all the dirty dealings with the bank bailout that made the recession so long lasting.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#146
post #141
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you that he's wrong, but arguing without proper arguments then insulting him doesn't really help the conversation. @bcook: Heroin, if it was 100% pure (e.g. as manufactured by a pharmacuticals company), and used with completely safe equipment (e.g. sterylised needles), and used at not-too-high dose levels, it would actually be pretty safe. It essentially has the same effect as morphine or oxycod…

Cite an article that says the purity of heroin is the most dangerous part of heroin use. Just one reputable article. Put up or shutup. I posted 3 well-established papers above if you want some reading.

Here's an interesting brief-read: http://lifeprocessprogram.com/lp-blog/library/the-persistent...

Here's a paper about treating opiate addicts with pure heroin and it having positive effects: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2008....

If you read up pretty much any information about the dangers of heroin, you will see that they are overdose (which you can prevent by using the right amounts), risk when mixed with other drugs (including alcohol), and risk surrounding it (e.g. sharing needles, committing crimes to afford it, etc.) You're still as likely to get addicted, but if you know the dose you're putting into your body you'll probably be fine.

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Adverse_effects) cites "Merck Manual of Home Health Handbook – 2nd edition, 2003, p. 2097" for the following statement: "Like most opioids, unadulterated heroin does not cause many long-term complications other than dependence and constipation." Followed by "...purity levels between 40% and 60%; this variation has led to people suffering from overdoses as a result"

Pure Heroin is actually prescribed as a legal drug in some countries, e.g. the UK: http://patient.info/medicine/diamorphine and once inside your body is almost exactly the same as morphine that is prescribed as a painkiller in most countries. These drugs, when prescribed (and therefore completely pure and dosage known), very rarely cause problems for their users other than tolerance build-up and potential for users to use recreationally without knowing what dose to use.

So stop being rude and go do some Googling yourself, or ask any doctor the next time you go see one / are in a hospital, and they'll tell you the same thing.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice idea, but I can see the UK leaning on them, hard, not to do this. I can see the arguments now: - People will get the ferry to Ireland and bring them to the UK! - Drug tourism! Amsterdam! Everybody hates Amsterdam! Look at how terrible everything is there! - Think of the children!! - It's not aligned with the UK's policy of increasing criminalisation! - Think of what you'll do to your prison sector! Hopefu…

Can you elaborate on how Amsterdam is terrible? I recently spent a week day. (Partly on vacation, partly on business.) I saw a country with great public transport, decent food, a vibrant arts scene, and while yes, the smell of weed was everywhere, people seemed way more laid back. No roving bands of drunk frat bros, no meth tweakers, and police who viewed their job as to increase the enjoyment of all citizens and vis…

Amsterdam has high (for Europe) violent crime rates.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-yor...

> Amsterdam tops the list of homicide rates in Western Europe with 4.4 murders per 100,000 people, followed by Glasgow (3.3 per 100,000), Brussels (3 per 100,000) and Prague (2.7 per 100,000). With 0.0016% of people in London being murdered, the city ranks just ahead of Canada and Serbia's largest cities.

It's still a lovely place to be, but some people see the crime.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#148
post #95
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotes are not a valid citation. Heroin is the most harmful drug, statistically, according to numerous studies.

Not heroin, but a completely unknown substance presented as heroin that probably consists of around 30% heroin.

30% how generous. In EU the average purity for heroin is ~2%.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#149
post #67
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And of course once you've legalized the selling of marijuana, you're potentially openings the doors for other substances" I agree you've got to start somewhere. I find the argument that marijuana is a door opener to other substances is flawed though. If pot didn't exist, would the same argument be made for liquor stores, tobacco sales, coffee shops, red bulls at 7/11, cough medicine at Walmart etc? Or is it just bec…

Tobacco and alcohol are legal and used because they were staples of the founding of the US. Tobacco was one of the chief exports of the colonies and the new US for centuries and made a lot of people rich and even more people happy. Alcohol is legal in almost every country on Earth because you can make it out of almost everything. What might end up happening is regional fermentation variants are stigmatized. Cannibis…

There's also the hemp angle. There had recently been advances in the production of hemp paper and the plant produced fibers that DuPont wanted to replace with Nylon. DuPont and Hearst (who had a lot of money invested in tree-based paper) had economic incentives to reduce/eliminate Hemp from our society.

Hearst's yellow journalism tapped into the xenophobia and racism of the average American to convince them that this Devil's weed would have Mexicans and Negroes rampaging all across the country and having sex with white women.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#150
post #127
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have links to those studies? A lot of the harm from heroin come from adulterants which are injected, causing abscess; or from the illegality of providing clean needles and injection advice and safe spaces to inject which causes infection etc; or from the illegality of providing maintenance doses from doctors which cause people to burgle or sex work to get money to buy the drug. Heroin is undoubtedly an unwise…

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67... http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67... http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/4/e000774.full.html#T1 There are more, but freely accessing journals online is troublesome. I have NEVER seen any study say heroin is anything but one of the most crippling and dangerous addictions. I am still waiting for anyone to cite one...

Your first one is available here: http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_old/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf

Have a read. Do you think it still supports your position? It says, clearly, that alcohol is more harmful than heroin. Are you calling for alcohol to be made illegal?

Or: Bob is a heroin addict. Should Bob continue to buy heroin from the street? That heroin will be adulterated; of unknown strength; sold by criminals; and may require Bob to engage in acquisitive crime or prostitution to get the money needed. It will be injected with whatever needle Bob has, which may not be sterile and may be shared with other people, some of whom have blood borne diseases. Or should Bob be prescribed heroin by his doctor. That heroin will not be adulterated; will be of known strength; will be supplied with clean needles and advice on safe injection; and will not require Bob to engage in acquisitive crime or prostitution to get it.

Again: Heroin is undoubtedly an unwise choice, but keeping it illegal causes very great harm.

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