More parents, students saying 'no' to homework • Hacker News Board

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#191

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #50

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll preface this response with the acknowledgement that the world is not ideal, and there are some fundamental problems underlying how classes are structured (largely due to the fact that evaluations are based on the achievement of the lowest performers) which poses institutional obstacles to efficient work assignments. That being said, given the (in practice flawed) assumption that the work being assigned is someth…

You are assuming the education of a single class takes precedence over other classes, the education of extra curricular activities, and the education of chores at home. That is a large assumption that I'm pretty sure is invalid. The crux of this problem is that time spent in school is poorly spent for a host of reasons. If you child spends close to 7 hours at school and none of that time was available for the work th…

> You are assuming the education of a single class takes precedence over (...) the education of extra curricular activities

I think this is sort of in the name, extra-curricular - as in, "in addition to the stuff that's the priority".

> and the education of chores at home

Here I will have to agree with 'lordCarbonFiber. You can't have teachers asking kids to do something and then let parents arbitrarily overrule them. One of the point of public education system is that the kid gets to learn something regardless of what parents think of it. You're probably a very responsible person, but the general population is a mix of people, some of whom have ideological reasons to reject parts of science, others simply don't like math, and many are just so overworked that they'll let the kid take a break at the first sign of difficulty. It's such a random mix that you have to enforce some rules, or else the kids will propagate further the faults of their parents.

> The crux of this problem is that time spent in school is poorly spent for a host of reasons. If you child spends close to 7 hours at school and none of that time was available for the work that is expected to be done at home then that imposes an undue burden on the child and the family.

Totally, 100% agree.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#192

Post by learc83 » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

Dowwie wrote: post #184

"Let kids be kids" means something different for each household. In mine, that meant video games and sports, but mostly the former. Not sure what's going to come of any no-homework generation while this happens elsewhere: "Teens in Shanghai spend 14 hours a week on homework" http://qz.com/311360/students-in-these-countries-spend-the-m...

When I was in elementary school in the 90s, they used to try to scare us into working harder by telling us stories about how Japanese kids went to school half a day on Saturday.

When my parents were in school it was about keeping up with the Soviets.

These days, it's kids in Shanghai doing 14 hours a week of homework.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#193

Post by ilovefood » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #145

ilovefood wrote: post #114

After refusing them to get proper vaccination, let's prevent them from getting proper education. Evolution baby!

"Vaccinations are effective at preventing disease, with minimal side effects." "Hours of homework (after 7 hours of school) is 'proper education'." Are you really claiming that those two statements have a remotely similar body of evidence supporting them?

They both tend to improve our ability to adapt in a hostile environment: real life. Like I said, evolution.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#194

Post by marpstar » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

yawaramin wrote: post #174

douche wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame video games for making me into a history buff. And maybe Legos, combined with the History Channel before it was the RedneckAliensJesus Channel. Civilization, Lords of the Realm, Caesar II, Robert E. Lee: Civil War General, Close Combat, Total War, Pirates!, Anno 1602, Europa Universalis/Crusader Kings/Victoria/Hearts of Iron, Age of Empires Or to go way back, Math/Word Rescue, Treasure Mountain, Midnight Resc…

Shoutout to the Encarta trivia game with the jester! That was the best.

Mindmaze!

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#195

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #54

michaelbuddy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're losing me with this. Parents, exhausted after work, kids already 7 hours of school, then there's this new set of chores to deal with instead of enjoying life, you know life, the finite thing that runs out. that AND this goal of "education" you seem to have is not the actual goal for most people. My goal for me or my kids is not to "be educated" Just like a goal of a society is not to "have laws"

It's an investment sure and you're right in asserting that childhood is finite. Fortunately, the US is interesting in that they give you the freedom to home school. If knowledge isn't a priority we as a country give you the right to deny it to your child. In my personal experience (and I suspect yours given you're on this site) my entire livelihood is dependent on my knowledge. For me, this was cultivated on the latt…

> In my personal experience (and I suspect yours given you're on this site) my entire livelihood is dependent on my knowledge.

So does mine. And almost everything I know about tech, and about the science and the world came from avoiding learning in school and reading books instead, or playing computer games for 8 hours straight to the point I learned English, and then decided to make my own, and then bye bye homework (and grades) and listening to the teachers because I have programming books to read (I ended up having bad math grades for a while, but I caught up - getting into game development tends to make you very good at school-level math very quickly, sans the bullshit they usually teach you instead of actual understanding).

I don't want to say here that school is pointless - but the best people I know are either ones totally ok with discipline and systematic assignments, or people who ignore all that stuff and learn their own way. Most kids get neither full-in or full-out, so they get all the disadvantages of rote learning with none of the benefits of systematic practice.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#196

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

robotresearcher wrote: post #57

The main benefit of homework is instilling the habit of working to a deadline without direct supervision, instead of giving in to distractions.

So I guess maybe my schools were too easy on the homework - I managed to slip through doing as little as I could, electing for self-driven learning instead (known to me as "whoa, this thing is cool!" when I was a kid), and the end result is that I absolutely can't do bullshit work on a deadline without direct supervision. It makes me feel at the same time both smart and totally unfit for the contemporary workplace.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#197

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:50 PM UTC

Afton wrote: post #166

derefr wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a police officer in front of the classroom who was enabled to boot the dysfunctional future criminals from the classroom Well, that sounds like a way to make more future criminals. Maybe send the police officer to the parents instead. If the goal is to systematize the production of healthy, non-broken adults, we want to get those children more of a healthy environment, and less of an unhealthy one—send those police…

I feel like everyone in this thread should go watch season 4 of the The Wire. There is a lot of relevant work there, including the various pressures on, and requirements of the educational system. tl:dr; Teacher's can only ever be a part of a solution to the complicated educational needs of our society. And given what we're willing to spend, they can't even be a particularly effective part in poorer parts of the coun…

go watch season 4 of the The Wire...And given what we're willing to spend...

Ironically, Baltimore spends quite a lot ($15k/student) on schools. Apparently only NYC (among the top 100 districts) spends more.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-21/news/bs-md-ci-ce...

"In spite of what we're willing to spend..." would be a better phrasing.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#198

Post by keypusher » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

phlyingpenguin wrote: post #173

lordnacho wrote: post #37

The problem with homework is it's used as a form of accountability. My French teacher used to joke when collecting papers : "Ou est votre dette a la societe?" (Apologies for missing accents.) Of course what it should be is like at university. The professor can't spend all his time with you, so you get a rough list of what you should know about. It's then up to you to judge whether you need to read a bit more or a bit…

As a university level instructor, we still give homework and it's still a big part of the student's grades. It's still up to the student to decide if that's enough, but accountability is there. The students do not tend to ask themselves if they understand the material until they are in their later years of schooling. I strongly dislike dealing with more homework so I tend to spot check and count participation in the…

The way it is handled at large research universities is through rigorous testing. They don't care if you show up to class, they don't care if you do the homework, but the midterm and final are brutally difficult and count for 50-75% of your grade. You learn very quickly how much homework you need to do, or you fail. Personally, I find that approach far better than counting class exercises, participation, or any other subjective assessments.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#199

Post by teddyh » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

dgrant wrote: post #190

RogerL wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a pretty wide gulf between no homework, ever, and the kinds of loads being placed on some kids. You talk about "a few" words a week. My friend's kids (I have none) end up staying up until 1am, forgoing family and friend time, just to keep up with the work demands. We invited a family to do something with us - the response was that they might be able to do something in 6 or so months due to the kids schedule.…

Like another commenter said... I wonder what the kid's evening actually looks like. Staying up until 1am sounds/smells a lot to me like the kind of household where homework gets pushed until the end of the day. I sort of speak from experience as someone who constantly was up late during my university years, and it started in late high school. It all had to do with me not doing my homework right away, putting it off,…

You sound like you’re assuming that today’s kids get about the same amount of homework which you did. My impression is that the amount of homework has increased enormously since you were a kid.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#200

Post by drewg123 » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

We opted out of a 9/10 greatschools.org public school by second grade due, in part, to excessive homework in early elementary school (and also because of an obsession with standardized tests).

My son had 15-20 minutes a night of homework in kindergarten and even more in first grade. He was a "late" (by US standards) reader, which meant that he could not be responsible for reading the instructions doing his homework himself. These nightly homework sessions were pure misery for our family. After 2 years, we felt that all they were achieving was to drum any love of learning out of our son.

After 2 years in a Montessori-like school, he's reading well above grade level, doing well at math, loving science, and has transferred to a new school with a Spanish immersion program. I feel that if he'd stayed in public school, he'd be well on the way to having "learning problems"