edits to correct typos made on my phone. I am skeptical of developer bootcamps because they often aren't open enrollment. You generally have to have the aptitude and background to get through their admissions process and interview. That weeds out some people right away. They are right to have this admissions process, because if you let everyone in, lots of people won't make it, and then the promise of good paying job…
> open enrollment Do you mean that the program should be made available to anyone who wants to take it? What if there just isn't enough capacity to take that many people?
Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
141–150 of 187 posts
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
This attitude, that I see frequently on HN, isn't very helpful. I taught myself to write code in a little under three months and immediately got a job as a Jr. Dev. I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program. Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Looking back at myself at 18, t…
> I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program.Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Data structures are not basics. Self-balanced binary tree graphs are not basics. More basic than that would be to learn what a graph is - Euler's bridges, Dijkstra's shortest path. More basic is…
> (although "no motivation" sounds worse than "no opportunity at the time")
18 was ten years ago. I was playing college football, thinking I was going to go pro. I was an idiot, but I got a college degree.
I then went on to have a career in a different field, grew up a little and taught myself to code. I've been working in the industry for three years. I have a long way to go. I spend every evening either a) doing homework for an online course I'm taking from Rice (through Coursera), b) Going through a self-directed course I've made consisting of various text books/academic papers, c) actually writing code.
Seriously, fuck you for acting like the only way to become a respectable or successful developer is the path you picked.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
It depends on the school. The very best ones like Hack Reactor have a 99% rate for people getting jobs within 6 months, averaging at 100k. The "average" ones are closer to 75k average starting salary.
What? How is this possible? Entry level web developer with a starting salary of $100k... and a guarantee... That looks like a straight up lie.
Hack Reactor indeed has these statistics, but their application process is probably the most difficult/selective of any of the bootcamps. The people going into the program, are usually, already quite good.
As an example, I have a friend who graduated from General Assembly, didn't feel quite prepared, so did Hack Reactor AS WELL. (ie, 2 separate bootcamps, one right after the other). On top of, of course, a college degree (albeit non-CS)
It is kind of like how Harvard has very good hiring stats. Is Harvard really that good, or does their admissions process just select for people who are almost certainly going to be successful, no matter what college they go to.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would you be willing to extend the same logic to the medical profession? What about law? Or perhaps architecture? Would you let a 12 week bootcamp graduate design your home? Or really, any other type of engineer. After all, the argument about "theory" differing from "real world practice" and becoming "good enough" can be made for those as well. You don't need to know about how germs work in order to treat a cold. You…
> Medical Yes. There is plenty of work that can be done by a nurse that doesn't need to be done by a doctor. It seems silly that someone gets sent to school for over a decade to talk to me about whether I can take a drug to bring back the spark in my relationship. > Law Yes. There are plenty of routine legal procedures that should be allowed to be performed by someone that doesn't have to go through the costly proces…
> Yes. There is plenty of work that can be done by a nurse that doesn't need to be done by a doctor. It seems silly that someone gets sent to school for over a decade to talk to me about whether I can take a drug to bring back the spark in my relationship.
> > Law
> Yes. There are plenty of routine legal procedures that should be allowed to be performed by someone that doesn't have to go through the costly process of going through law school (routine divorce comes to mind)
Paralegals and Nurses require 2-4 year diplomas or degrees, typically
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is that is there any verifiable statistics to back this up? There is very little statutory protection for employees in the USA so the actual cost of firing some one isn't that high.
> the actual cost of firing some one isn't that high The legal cost is low, but the social cost of a workplace where people often get fired is high.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I work at a school that has that right now, and we do have lots of people who don't make it very far. When it comes to those "who don't make it very far"; how do you handle tuition and possible refunds? I'm not really advocating that they deserve or should get a full refund; I'm just skeptical that an open enrollment type thing where anyone can join (like I've experienced with a MOOC)-- you'll have a lot of student…
I agree with all of this. But I've seen people who came from nothing rise to the occasion and turn things around. And if we'd screened them out, the world would be worse off for it. The perspective they bring demonstrates the true, non-politicized idea of diversity. And so that's what I fear happens if the industry picks this bootcamp thing and runs with it; that we'll end up with a very homogeneous group of develope…
I've seen that "problem" in college graduates as well, and the flurry of problems arising after that guaranteed job never came to fruition.
I can see the fulfillment in having taken someone from nothing to being prepared for (or having) gainful employment in that field. I'm sure screening out folks who perhaps weren't immediately going to be competitive / successful plays into that fulfillment and success as a teacher; higher risk, higher potential gain (or at least, personal fulfillment).
I'm actually signed up for the General Assembly WDI next month in Atlanta; while its interesting to hear that Google has done this with GA, it wont strictly affect my class (I don't think it will, at any rate)... but speaking to that "guaranteed job"-- I do have _slightly_ more confidence that I'll be able to find a place I want to work (vs what I'm doing now, basically doing triage on broken webapp backends for various folks as a consultant).
As for the refunds; yeah, idk-- I could just imagine some really sore feelings surrounding it, and I'm sure there would be individuals raising cain about having spent money and time on the program (though, I don't know of a college that offers refunds...). I can't really speak to a solution there besides having possible remediation style "classes" or having a really strong network of after-hours study groups.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
This attitude, that I see frequently on HN, isn't very helpful. I taught myself to write code in a little under three months and immediately got a job as a Jr. Dev. I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program. Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Looking back at myself at 18, t…
> I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program.Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Data structures are not basics. Self-balanced binary tree graphs are not basics. More basic than that would be to learn what a graph is - Euler's bridges, Dijkstra's shortest path. More basic is…
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program.Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Data structures are not basics. Self-balanced binary tree graphs are not basics. More basic than that would be to learn what a graph is - Euler's bridges, Dijkstra's shortest path. More basic is…
I forget how much I hate Hacker News sometimes. Thanks for reminding me. > (although "no motivation" sounds worse than "no opportunity at the time") 18 was ten years ago. I was playing college football, thinking I was going to go pro. I was an idiot, but I got a college degree. I then went on to have a career in a different field, grew up a little and taught myself to code. I've been working in the industry for three…
Can you name me the respectable, successful, known developers that did not get a college degree? I mean, I can think of a few who were in the math/CS program of a top-tier school, who started a company on the side that took off, and dropped out since they were already on a rocket ship. I can also think of a few like John Carmack who just dropped out, but would still fit that category. Although...Carmack has been very straightforward about what he knows, does not know, and is learning, and sometimes I'm surprised that he is just learning a topic I had already studied indepth as an undergraduate.
While people like this are few and far between, I can name many more successful and respectable programmers who have a college degree. Who are the majority.
I look at this equanimously, while you seem to take it very personally. In my experience, those who spent four years at college studying calculus, computational complexity, backtracking, 1st/2nd/3rd normal form, how floating point numbers are stored in memory etc. are usually better than those who have not. That doesn't mean someone who slacked through school for four years is always better than someone who did not go to school for four years. It just means more often than not, someone with four years study of foundational computer science is better than someone without it.
You said you've been at this for three years - so 2012 or so. The tech economy (and to a lesser extent the broader economy) has been booming, as can be evidenced from stories here on HN. You seem to be getting upset...over a comment on HN! Let's see how you do when the economy tanks like it did in 2008-2009. Let's see how you do when tech jobs crash with the dot-coms like they did in 2000-2001. When suddenly the few job postings which appear will say "BSCS required". Why wouldn't they, because in those times, they'll still be flooded with dozens of resumes with people with BSCS's. By then you may have a mortgage, a car, two kids.
Your argument is not with me. Here's a line from a job posting on SF Bay Craigslist - ( http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/egr/5278943482.html )
"Senior Application Engineer @ Slack...Here are a few extra things that would lift you up a couple of notches in our eyes: * Academic background in computer science (BSc or MSc)"
That's the #1 thing they have on their "nice to haves" list. I can assure you - when we go from these go-go unicorn times to a 2000-2001 or 2008 recession, at a time when you need work the most, I can guarantee you that their #1 "nice to have" will move up into the required column.
When the economy takes a dive like it does every eight years or so, and you have a mortgage and two kids, and you're a fifty-something unemployed coder with no degree and gaps in his technical knowledge who refused to take the bull by the horns at a time when you could have (two night class a year over twenty years would get you a degree by the age of 48), you will look back in enormous regret that you did not spend 90 minutes twice a week going to night class to earn a BSCS.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#149Here's my logic: Too few developers are developing on Android as there are few profits to be had. As a result, the Android eco-system is not sufficiently valuable to customers willing to pay for apps. To break this cycle, Android wishes to attack the supply issue and raise the value of the platform via working with groups to train more Android developers. Google is partnering with General Assembly on this initiative because of their experience running bootcamps. Karma and Vice are willing to hire every programmer because they're short on developers?
This is where I'm tripped up. Can Karma and Vice not find a sufficient number of Android developers? Or are they unwilling to pay enough to compete for talent? Are developers lured into GA's pipeline to find higher paying jobs? Is the $13.5k tuition not subsidized by Google or Karma and Vice to filter for 'serious' developers?
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#150I spent a year teaching the web development immersive program at General Assembly. I felt skeptical about the program too, but I always wanted to try teaching so I thought it was worth a go.
by the way, I'd recommend it to anyone. It's a great way to take a break from dev work and teach the next generation of developers. It is extremely rewarding to watch people go from next to zero knowledge to being able to build functional apps, and they are always looking for new instructors.
So, does it work?
Admissions - We did have a fairly high admissions bar (as to not waste anyones time or money), but the bar was really about motivation and ability to learn the basics (they have to do some basic html / css). The program is VERY fast and demanding and people need to be able to do nothing but code for 3 months. Their personal life gets put on hold and they live, breath, and eat code.
Completion - Every class I taught had exactly one student drop toward the beginning, but outside of that everyone that started the program made it through (thanks in part to the admissions process).
Outcome - Every student that finished the program and actively tried to find work got a job. Each class (of 20+ people) had a couple people that decided to do something else with their lives, but everyone that decided they wanted a job in development got one.
I can't speak for all "boot camp" programs, but I can say that the program that I taught was very effective and IMO people got a great return on their investment.
These views are my own and don't reflect the views of General Assembly or Google, blah, blah, etc..
(edits to fix typos and some re-organization)