Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#81

Post by jpadkins » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:45 PM UTC

manish_gill wrote: post #60

segmondy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…

> A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. No, they are not. A good developer is someone who, by virtue of the fact that he or she has to write software whose theoretical underpinnings are rooted in CS, must be good in CS as well. It's ok if you're not a CS person, but stop generalising and saying no dev has to be. > There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can bui…

> Video Games - try writing one without knowing much about Linear Algebra. See how far you get.

Trivial in Unity or UDK. Good frameworks / game engines make non CS people productive in building apps. There are thousands of successful mobile game developers with little to no CS background.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#82

Post by el_benhameen » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:47 PM UTC

Hortinstein wrote: post #35

qntty wrote: post #2

Tuition for the 12-week course in Android development, which was designed by Google's developer training team, is $13,500. The full-time course will be offered in early 2016 at General Assembly's flagship offices in New York and San Francisco and then spread to its 14 locations around the world.

meanwhile I am paying ~$8,000 for a full computer science masters from GA Tech (OMSCS). Different class of education, but I feel like I am getting a better deal.

Slightly off-topic, but do most members of your cohort have academic backgrounds in CS? I'm interested in the program, but have a non-CS bachelor's plus work experience in development, and I'm not sure if it's worth my time to apply.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#83

Post by petra » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:51 PM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #36

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…

This course teaches android development. Usually the scalability issues are handled by an outsourced backend.Seems like a perfect fit.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#84

Post by manish_gill » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:51 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #71

whiteboarder wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My definition of a "software engineer" is someone who gets paid 6 figures for writing code, any code. And it just so happens there there are quite of lot of 6 figure jobs that solely involve building crud apps by gluing together frameworks. You can shit it on all you want, and talk about how "us real computer scientists are solving the Hard Problems by building compilers and OSs". But at the end of the day, the perso…

Parent's argument reminds me of a No True Scotsman fallacy. Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge." Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." I feel the much of the negativity towards bootcamps is partially due to people feeling threatened by new entrants. Kind of like black cars in London claiming that to be a cab dr…

Would you be willing to extend the same logic to the medical profession? What about law? Or perhaps architecture? Would you let a 12 week bootcamp graduate design your home? Or really, any other type of engineer. After all, the argument about "theory" differing from "real world practice" and becoming "good enough" can be made for those as well. You don't need to know about how germs work in order to treat a cold. You just need to know which medicine to prescribe.

The only difference between the above mentioned professions and Software Engineering is that there is no formal "examination" that you have to pass to demonstrate your qualification - which is the barrier that is there to ensure quality students. It comes down to qualification. Unlike doctors and lawyers, the barrier to entry in our industry is much, much low. Which most assuredly leads to a decline in quality.

So yeah, thanks for the passive aggressive attacks about me feeling threatened, but no. I've never seen a 6-figure salary, I don't live in US/Bay Area. I just like quality code and working with quality people. Bootcamp devs aren't those. Can they be? Sure, but as some graduates in this thread themselves admitted, it took them 2-3 years to reach that position anyway.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#85

Post by eropple » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:51 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #71

whiteboarder wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My definition of a "software engineer" is someone who gets paid 6 figures for writing code, any code. And it just so happens there there are quite of lot of 6 figure jobs that solely involve building crud apps by gluing together frameworks. You can shit it on all you want, and talk about how "us real computer scientists are solving the Hard Problems by building compilers and OSs". But at the end of the day, the perso…

Parent's argument reminds me of a No True Scotsman fallacy. Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge." Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." I feel the much of the negativity towards bootcamps is partially due to people feeling threatened by new entrants. Kind of like black cars in London claiming that to be a cab dr…

> I feel the much of the negativity towards bootcamps is partially due to people feeling threatened by new entrants.

There's so much work in this industry, and will only be more over time, that I'm not worried about being replaced by any stretch. Fear certainly may be the driving force for some folks, but my experience with bootcamp graduates has just generally been unimpressive. I'm certain there are quality graduates from these programs! I've just never actually worked with them, and it's getting to the point where the correlation is uncomfortable.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#86

Post by bduerst » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:52 PM UTC

manish_gill wrote: post #60

segmondy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…

> A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. No, they are not. A good developer is someone who, by virtue of the fact that he or she has to write software whose theoretical underpinnings are rooted in CS, must be good in CS as well. It's ok if you're not a CS person, but stop generalising and saying no dev has to be. > There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can bui…

The difference is semantics - one is a software engineer and the other a software programmer.

You don't need to know classical mechanic physics as a construction worker to build a structure, but you do need to know it as the architect designing it. The bigger the structure, the more important.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#87

Post by techman9 » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

morgante wrote: post #70

sbov wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found that CS theory was great, once I had the practical experience to recognize how to use it. In a sense I feel like we do things backwards. You should work in industry for a couple years, then learn the theory you learn when getting a CS degree. The software development career path isn't setup like this now, but if it were, I feel like we would all be better off.

Interestingly, I think that is actually how it works for most elite/successful programmers. They hack around on computers in high school and get to being pretty good at programming, then go to college and pick up the theory side. Fundamentally, I think trying to get people to be developers who are only interested in money is a losing proposition.

I'm a university student in a very well ranked Computer Science program in California.

I'm interested in the fundamentals of CS, and I code because I love coding, not because I'm really interested in a high paying low stress job. Most students in my program and who I'm friends with have an interest in going into management or building a cool product quickly. (Let me be clear, I don't wish to pass value judgement on the reasons that one is interested in CS. Those reasons are equally legitimate, just not to my interest)

Unfortunately, at least my observation, students who have recently become interested in CS "for the money" tend to perform significantly worse are and are largely less successful at Computer Science. The students who are most successful are those who have known that Computer Science is their passion for a long time and who are now in college pursuing that interest.

Fundamentally, I agree with you, the divide between those who wish to be serious computer scientists and "coders" becomes more clear every year.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#88

Post by deegles » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #69

roymurdock wrote: post #3

Can anyone in the app development world speak to whether or not there actually is a shortage of Android devs? Or is Google just trying to spark innovation by getting more engineers into the Android ecosystem?

Have been building mobile apps for a living for a few years - which I suppose makes me a vet in a relatively new field, so maybe I can shed some light: Demand for mobile developers in general is off the charts, and still climbing. It's kind of absurd, really - the going rate for mobile devs has increased 200-300% over the past 3 years amongst colleagues I know, which I think is almost entirely attributable to the dem…

Do you have any advice for someone thinking about going from a fulltime SDE role to freelance iOS/Android development? I'm thinking of making the leap soon.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#89

Post by petra » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #69

roymurdock wrote: post #3

Can anyone in the app development world speak to whether or not there actually is a shortage of Android devs? Or is Google just trying to spark innovation by getting more engineers into the Android ecosystem?

Have been building mobile apps for a living for a few years - which I suppose makes me a vet in a relatively new field, so maybe I can shed some light: Demand for mobile developers in general is off the charts, and still climbing. It's kind of absurd, really - the going rate for mobile devs has increased 200-300% over the past 3 years amongst colleagues I know, which I think is almost entirely attributable to the dem…

Regarding UI: didn't material design simplified good UI for android in such a way , that it is much more learnable(with time) for boot camp graduates ?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#90

Post by bko » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

manish_gill wrote: post #84

bko wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent's argument reminds me of a No True Scotsman fallacy. Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge." Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." I feel the much of the negativity towards bootcamps is partially due to people feeling threatened by new entrants. Kind of like black cars in London claiming that to be a cab dr…

Would you be willing to extend the same logic to the medical profession? What about law? Or perhaps architecture? Would you let a 12 week bootcamp graduate design your home? Or really, any other type of engineer. After all, the argument about "theory" differing from "real world practice" and becoming "good enough" can be made for those as well. You don't need to know about how germs work in order to treat a cold. You…

> Medical

Yes. There is plenty of work that can be done by a nurse that doesn't need to be done by a doctor. It seems silly that someone gets sent to school for over a decade to talk to me about whether I can take a drug to bring back the spark in my relationship.

> Law

Yes. There are plenty of routine legal procedures that should be allowed to be performed by someone that doesn't have to go through the costly process of going through law school (routine divorce comes to mind)

> Architecture

Don't know much about architecture :-/

Didn't mean to be passive aggressive. So for that I apologize.