edits to correct typos made on my phone. I am skeptical of developer bootcamps because they often aren't open enrollment. You generally have to have the aptitude and background to get through their admissions process and interview. That weeds out some people right away. They are right to have this admissions process, because if you let everyone in, lots of people won't make it, and then the promise of good paying job…
> That weeds on some people right away. > people who have grown up around how to learn Neither of these phrases makes any sense.
Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
121–130 of 187 posts
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
This attitude, that I see frequently on HN, isn't very helpful. I taught myself to write code in a little under three months and immediately got a job as a Jr. Dev. I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program. Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Looking back at myself at 18, t…
For reference, what year was it when you got a job after three months of self study?
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
And yet the Developer Boot Camps work. Just look at the job statistics for anyone of the top ones, like Hack Reactor, Flatiron School, ect. They graduate people who get 80-100k salary jobs, within 6 months of graduating. People go to these bootcamps for the singular goal of getting a high paying job, and these programs are wildly successful at achieving this goal.
Do they work? How many last in these jobs for a year? Two years? What's the quality of the work that comes out? How much of it has to be redone?
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's akin to how a couple of days of training could prepare someone to work at one of those oil change places but it won't make him or her into a car mechanic. These bootcamps can teach people the basics of programming and if they have the interest and aptitude, they can grow into mature, experienced developers.
The eternal problem is that academia is meant to create theoretical physicists when industry needs more mechanics.
We just happen to not have one for programming.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#125I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…
I found that CS theory was great, once I had the practical experience to recognize how to use it. In a sense I feel like we do things backwards. You should work in industry for a couple years, then learn the theory you learn when getting a CS degree. The software development career path isn't setup like this now, but if it were, I feel like we would all be better off.
Exactly my experience. When I started college, I hated all the theory and built apps. Now I am a senior and spending most of my time reading theory books and wishing I had minored in math!
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think you need a computer science degree to be a programmer, but I share your concern about Developer Boot Camps. I interview developers pretty often for my company and I've come across about a handful of people whose only education in development was one of these bootcamps; none of them were anywhere close to being ready for even an entry level position. So I become super skeptical when people are being aske…
It depends on the school. The very best ones like Hack Reactor have a 99% rate for people getting jobs within 6 months, averaging at 100k. The "average" ones are closer to 75k average starting salary.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#127I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…
This attitude, that I see frequently on HN, isn't very helpful. I taught myself to write code in a little under three months and immediately got a job as a Jr. Dev. I knew nothing about data structures or algorithms but I could write a Ruby program. Now, three years later, I am taking online classes to learn about those issues. The more advanced I got, the more I needed those "basics." Looking back at myself at 18, t…
Data structures are not basics. Self-balanced binary tree graphs are not basics. More basic than that would be to learn what a graph is - Euler's bridges, Dijkstra's shortest path. More basic is the initial introduction to the concept of the graph and the set in discrete mathematics (as well as other discrete subjects like logic, combinations, probablility etc.)
Algorithms are not basics. Bresenham's line algorithm is not basic. More basic is theory of computation - Turing machines, lambda calculus, mu-recursive functions. Automata theory, complexity theory, computability theory. Basic does not necessarily mean easier, sometimes the abstractions can be harder to grasp. What is the complexity of your algorithm, what's the worst case big O notated case? How is big O notation determined? Can you even know what an algorithm is, or compare algorithms without knowing these things? Then more basic than these things is the math such as calculus you may to determine some algorithms.
Frankly, if when "looking back at myself at 18, there is no way I would have made it through a CS course. I had no motivation for school" , and then you study Ruby for three months and get a job and are now taking online courses - I would be very skeptical of how deep your knowledge is.
You're honest enough about what you did. There's also nothing wrong with being in a situation where you don't have the opportunity to study CS intensively for four years under professors and grad students who have published papers in the field (although "no motivation" sounds worse than "no opportunity at the time"). There's nothing wrong with being lucky enough to bootstrap yourself to your current situation, there's everything wrong with fooling yourself that in five years, that kid in his third year of CS right now, who is dedicated to studying the things I mentioned, and who will study it next year, and who will then get a job and work for four years. In five years he will be ahead of you. He has a foundation that you don't. He will have a confidence you won't. As an interviewer I will be able to tell this.
My advice would be to look at local public colleges and see if any are good. See what their CS programs are, how they deal with night/weekend students for CS majors (some required classes may be on a weekday at 1 PM) etc. See what the pre-requisite graph is. Then take one class a semester, at night or on weekends. It will be one or two nights a week. Maybe take an easy non-CS class first like art appreciation or something. Note they often put one of the hardest courses for CS (like Calculus 101) as an initial pre-requisite for all CS classes to weed out "unmotivated" people from burdening the school CS program. Keeping on the topic of the weed-out class though - if you struggle over Calculus 101 like we CS majors did, to where you're even thinking of dropping out - wouldn't that be a sign that we were learning things in school you didn't know? It's not a laugh a minute to do Cook Turing reductions of NP problems in order to show similar properties of problems - but it does help in understanding fundamentals of CS.
It is better to think about this sooner than later. People do these things when they're in there teens or early 20s because it's easier to do then. You really don't want to have this revelation after you have a child or two, and are having trouble finding good work because of no diploma and lack of fundamentals. One bonus is the diploma is not the only payoff - even halfway through school you'll be a better programmer, more attractive to some employers, will have met interesting professors and students (if you put yourself out there) etc. You get out what you put in - professors like students who pay attention and do well, and can be helpful.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being a software developer in the modern world (web, mobile) has little to do with computer science. These skills can be taught but aren't in most modern universities. Mostly, there is argument that university is not vocational training. At the same time, most people implicitly feel the need to go to university to get a job. These developer boot camps create a new path. It's a good thing.
"Being a software developer in the modern world... has little to do with computer science." Is a categorical falsehood that has cost me alot of time and money. There is not one top tier technology company software team that you can get on without having a strong grasp of at least the basic fundamentals of CS (namely data structures, algorithms, and some college level math.) You will ALWAYS get passed on if you only f…
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
The eternal problem is that academia is meant to create theoretical physicists when industry needs more mechanics.
True, except we have a lot of degrees that produce "mechanics"—the various engineering degrees. And we have an organization (ABET) that makes sure schools teach the right stuff. We just happen to not have one for programming.
Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
True, except we have a lot of degrees that produce "mechanics"—the various engineering degrees. And we have an organization (ABET) that makes sure schools teach the right stuff. We just happen to not have one for programming.
Accreditation organizations being the solution only holds if you accept the premise that a four-year degree with any course material is necessary to be a successful developer -- if that were true, figuring out what the right stuff to teach in that four years was would certainly be the challenge. But while I share a lot of people's skepticism of bootcamps, I personally haven't seen much evidence that that's true.