Live data from Hacker News

Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

bloomberg.com

71–80 of 187 posts

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. No, they are not. A good developer is someone who, by virtue of the fact that he or she has to write software whose theoretical underpinnings are rooted in CS, must be good in CS as well. It's ok if you're not a CS person, but stop generalising and saying no dev has to be. > There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can bui…

My definition of a "software engineer" is someone who gets paid 6 figures for writing code, any code. And it just so happens there there are quite of lot of 6 figure jobs that solely involve building crud apps by gluing together frameworks. You can shit it on all you want, and talk about how "us real computer scientists are solving the Hard Problems by building compilers and OSs". But at the end of the day, the perso…

Parent's argument reminds me of a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."

Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

I feel the much of the negativity towards bootcamps is partially due to people feeling threatened by new entrants. Kind of like black cars in London claiming that to be a cab driver you'd have to know the streets by memory, while in most cases GPS would be good enough. To me, it seems like a lot of bootcamps get you to good enough. That doesn't take away from all the years of investment and learning that other developers might have gone through to get where they are. There's room for both.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#72
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to rip on you, because I think you're a pretty sharp dude from your posting here, but if you think theory is a waste, I really question what sorts of Actually Hard Problems you've had to tackle. :/

Who gives a shit? The tech industry currently doesn't need any more people to work on the Actually Hard Problems. The tech industry currently pays people 6 figure salaries to build CRUD apps. There is such a huge shortage of tech people, that the industry can't even get the "Easy", low hanging fruit work done. It doesn't matter how many PHDs work at Tesla designing space cars if the world has a cronic shortage of car…

There is not a shortage of tech people. There is only a shortage of good tech people willing to work for peanuts.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#73
post #52
post #7

What does Google do with developers who are 40 or 50? What does age diversity look like at Google for engineering staff? Sooner or later this issue is going to come to a head when all the 20-30-something year old Javascript hackers grow older...

Aren't there lots of famous Google engineering staff in that age range? Jeff Dean, Peter Norvig, Rob Pike, etc

Yes, but these are the marquee hires.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#74
post #14
post #7

What does Google do with developers who are 40 or 50? What does age diversity look like at Google for engineering staff? Sooner or later this issue is going to come to a head when all the 20-30-something year old Javascript hackers grow older...

I interviewed at Google. Didn't get the gig, but while I was in the office, it did seem like their engineers were mostly 30+ somethings. I didn't see a lot engineers there that looked like fresh grads. I know more than half the engineers working there interview two or more times before getting an offer. Google, and most larger tech companies, optimize their hiring process to aggressively deny candidates if they aren'…

Has Google released any numbers regarding the age composition of their workforce? They have for race and gender.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#75
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…

No, what makes us uncomfortable is having to come back and maintain the code written by some of these boot camp graduates after the fact.

The number of people in the industry will increase regardless, whether it's through Google boot camps or otherwise.

When given the choice between diploma mill graduates and Google Developer Bootcamp graduates, I will choose the latter. And you will too.

Bare-minimum spaghetti code from passionless software developers is going to be mass produced and it will continue to be mass produced.

Honestly, I think we should look at this from a pair-programming perspective -- but on a massive scale. It is more beneficial to partner with existing educational institutions and make an on-going, consistent, and strong effort to create a robust pipeline from school to the industry.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you need a computer science degree to be a programmer, but I share your concern about Developer Boot Camps. I interview developers pretty often for my company and I've come across about a handful of people whose only education in development was one of these bootcamps; none of them were anywhere close to being ready for even an entry level position. So I become super skeptical when people are being aske…

It depends on the school. The very best ones like Hack Reactor have a 99% rate for people getting jobs within 6 months, averaging at 100k. The "average" ones are closer to 75k average starting salary.

I haven't come across anyone from Hack Reactor yet, but if the numbers they put on their website are true, then that's pretty impressive.

I did a bit of research and found a Quora answer regarding GA's success with its Web Development program here: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-hiring-rate-for-graduates-...

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#77
post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…

>but in reality day to day problem is CRUD.

that is the state of the industry dominated by "developers" instead of "scientists" or even "engineers". An industry with endemic Dunning–Kruger.

The point is to move industry beyond the CRUD. "Developers" just don't understand it and are happy to manually churn it again and again like those manual workers before industrialization or like those car assembly line workers before robots...

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#78
post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

And yet the Developer Boot Camps work. Just look at the job statistics for anyone of the top ones, like Hack Reactor, Flatiron School, ect. They graduate people who get 80-100k salary jobs, within 6 months of graduating. People go to these bootcamps for the singular goal of getting a high paying job, and these programs are wildly successful at achieving this goal.

Do they work? How many last in these jobs for a year? Two years? What's the quality of the work that comes out? How much of it has to be redone?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#79

Can anyone in the app development world speak to whether or not there actually is a shortage of Android devs? Or is Google just trying to spark innovation by getting more engineers into the Android ecosystem?

If there is a shortage of mobile devs have wages correspondingly risen? I'm sure if wages rise, more devs will learn it and fill that gap.

I don't know how sure I am about that.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#80
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop it. I think it's really an uncomfortable feeling for plenty of us that someone can learn to program in a few months. It makes plenty of people in the industry free inadequate and I see this argument of yours repeated over and over. It doesn't stand. A developer and a computer scientist are two different things. There are awesome developers who are terrible computer scientists. They can build a great website/smal…

No, what makes us uncomfortable is having to come back and maintain the code written by some of these boot camp graduates after the fact.

No kidding! The code they can write are naive solutions which may likely slow down the code/app as it 'scales'. As a computer scientist, I'm not threatened by those whose entire development expertise is the boot camp that they went to (as some seem to imply in this thread). But I fear that once their boss asks them to 'make this faster', they'll have a much harder time doing so since they may not have the proper CS fundamentals (e.g. can they profile code and see if it reflects the general theoretical run time?). They may risk their jobs if their employers may start to think they don't have the actual chops they were hired for.
Post reply on HN