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Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

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Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#81
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good story, and I'm glad your boss reacted well. But, it sort of bothers me how it's not considered acceptable in this world to take a sabbatical. Why are companies so against the idea of people taking a few months off in a row, especially if otherwise they would just quit?

A sabbatical can be long (and is not "vacation time" or "sick leave") because by default it's unpaid. So it's in the developer's interest as well for the manager to figure out a way to reshape his/her job to make it sustainable (and thus keep the paychecks coming) rather than just saying "uh, sure, go deal with your problems, take as long as you need; when you run out of money we'll still have your job here for you."…

> Plus -- "first newborn in the house" is something that causes upheaval for maybe 6 months or so, and then life settles down again.

Ha! That's fine until they get to 8 months and stop sleeping through the night again (which apparently is a common thing). A few weeks of chronic sleep deprivation can absolutely destroy your ability to do anything vaguely brain-work-related.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#82
Throwaway acct time!

I'm burnt out but there is no way on earth I would discuss personal problems with my boss, particularly ones that might indicate a potential work performance issue. I'd be handing this person a reason to actively start searching for my replacement. No way. I'm closing in on 40, which severely limits my options in Silicon Valley. I make a fairly decent salary, for a very well known tech company. Not gonna risk that. I've got kids and a mortgage to pay.

Quite frankly, I am shocked at the number of responses encouraging people to do this. It seems very high-risk, low potential reward. Interview when you can escape for a few hours, and if you happen to find a better job that looks like it will be less stress, take it! THEN and only then should you tell anyone.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#83
post #80

As a manager, if an employee of mine came to me and said "I'm burning out, what do I do?" I'd do whatever I could to help them rediscover their passion for the job they're doing. But as an employee, I made the mistake at my last job of telling my boss that I wasn't happy. Instead of trying to help, he pushed me out the door. I'm glad to not be there any more, and my happiness levels skyrocketed, but I'll be wary in t…

If you were happy after you left the job, didn't your boss do you a favor?

Sort of. It's a long story, but I got transferred into his department. I was happy in my other department and unhappy in his. So in that regard, it was not a favor. But since the transfer was effectively irreversible, it wound up being a favor in that I could move on and find something better.

The other major downside was the stress of being unemployed and having to find a new gig. But it all worked out in the end, so there's that.

Next time, I'll keep it to myself until I find another job.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#84
It seems like all of the things you are doing are the standard stupid suggestions on what to do when you're burned out but you're not addressing the real cause. I'm not 100% sure but I think that burnout is caused when there is a mismatch between work and reward (not just monetary, but general personal and social fulfillment).

Are you working on a huge, elaborate and edpansive project with lofty goals that have maybe been scuttled by tptbs for no good reason, leaving your hard work pointless? Are you bashing your head against failure that is beyond your control for some reason? I think these are the sorts of things that truly cause burnout, not overwork per se, but overwork coupled with a mismatch with expected reward, especially if it's repetitive. Then you're training your brain to be allergic to work, because hard work is negatively rewarded.

Paradoxically, the platitudinous prescriptions that many give (get fresh air, exercise, etc) can be counterproductive because you reinforce non-work things that give you the dopamine response of success in predictable, comforting bursts.

Another approach I suggest is work modestly to strenuously hard on small things with guaranteed or near guaranteed success that will also be fulfilling in some way. Maybe the results will be immediately obvious because you are building a small tool that helps your coworkers. Social validation and support for your efforts will also help.

I could be wrong about the mechanism of burnout, but if what I describe hits a nerve, I hope you will try to shake out of it with a mind to the mechanism of your burnout. This strategy has really helped me get out of funks in biochemistry (where failure is frequent), and I've helped many colleagues too.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#85
post #79

Disclaimer : I never had good relationship with any of my bosses in 10+ years, may be my fault or may be theirs. I cant change my attitude.(i'm not bootlicker and all my boss's expected that in my Indian environment/culture) There are quite lot of good comments on approaching boss and talking about your issue. I agree with them but let me ask: your boss doesn't know that you are overloaded ? Can't he see there are pe…

> I cant change my attitude.

I hope that this is a typo because in a relationship, the only attitude that you have in your power to change is yours, not your boss.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#86
post #77

I burned out and it took me 6 years to recover. Still to this day I deal with it. Two weeks ago I turned in my notice to a job that exceeded the stress level I wanted in my life, and just for kicks I looked for a short term contract a few days later. Immediately I was able to double my rate and get a reduced stressed position. There is no way I would have been able to ace the phone interview for the new shot term con…

> Then, the old contract cut me lose early and I got a week off

One mistake I made for the first decade working was to always jump straight from one job to the next with no time off in between. Taking even a week between really helps you relax and gives you time to figure out what's important to you. Although most people hiring want you to start ASAP, I doubt they would be fased much about you starting a week later - even for short term contracts you can usually squeeze it a bit.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#87
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a boss who I'd like to think falls into the former category... If you don't ask you won't know what they'll do for you or not. Could be your boss doesn't help or makes it worse then you know exactly what to do next - quit,move to another team, or take it to hr id its really hostile. That dick boss is probably the reason for your burnout (aka situational depression caused by work) so the solution is in mov…

[Also as a boss] I'm fully convinced that a lot of the badmouthing you hear about "bad bosses" comes from people who never made any effort to create a functional bidirectional trust relationship with their boss. There certainly are bad bosses, and I would never claim otherwise, but I think we'd all be better off if there was as much employee development training on "how to build a relationship with your boss" as ther…

I suspect many hacker types do have problems with the small talk, I know I do.

When I broke down and got sick I started cognitive behavioral therapy and among the things we talked about was expectations. It turned out that I didn't really know what my boss' expectation of me was. What I thought his expectation was were one of the things that broke me. And it was all fantasy. Lesson learned. Be frank and honest, don't be afraid to talk to your boss. Make sure you get answers that are explicit and something you understand. Make sure it's not cloudy company and management pep talk that you can't even remember a few minutes after the meeting.

Me and my boss talked a lot, and I ended staying in the company, but switched boss. :)

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#88
post #79

Disclaimer : I never had good relationship with any of my bosses in 10+ years, may be my fault or may be theirs. I cant change my attitude.(i'm not bootlicker and all my boss's expected that in my Indian environment/culture) There are quite lot of good comments on approaching boss and talking about your issue. I agree with them but let me ask: your boss doesn't know that you are overloaded ? Can't he see there are pe…

>your boss doesn't know that you are overloaded ?

He might not, people have different stress levels. I get stressed pretty easily, my boss, not so much.

As for not wanting/be able to change your attitude: I don't think you should be expected to. There will be jobs you can't hold, but telling someone that their attitude needs adjusting is somewhat narrow-minded. I behave, act and react in certain ways. That's just who I am, that excludes me for working for a large range of companies, but mostly is companies I wouldn't want to work for.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#89

My manager and I had a 10 year relationship going. I had just transitioned to a new role, had a new born and taken on too much. I was feeling it for 6 months but finally broke at around 9 months. I told him I couldn't do it anymore and that I wanted a sabbatical. I told them that my backup plan was to just quit. He talked me off the ledge and within a day had transitioned my troublesome projects to others and moved m…

I would like to interject: This heavily depends on the boss. I've seen great bosses who will make stuff like this happen, and I've seen terrible bosses who don't give a shit. Make sure you work for the right-kind of boss if you are going to take this approach!

The worst case scenario is your boss does nothing, you speak to your bosses boss who also does nothing, and you quit because that's your only route to retaining sanity which is essentially what happens if you don't talk to anyone anyway.

Re: Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?

#90
I finished TempleOS. I have commanded Intel and Microsoft on what to do. I am waiting on them. They are the bottleneck. http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Doc/Demands.html

My main duty is to entertain God. Yeah, I am burned-out.

Here is God. He is boss:

homeopathy's absolution's pustule compiler's geologic sublease's withholds pact similarity cordons recycle's Amado telephony tailors Warner Bujumbura rewire Park held bloodhound's streamer's Nairobi's sinkhole's Jeannette's nonresident anger suitability seclusive thankfulness Utopians encyclopedia nuisance's tandem's awestricken Otto tower unfortunately canker's quibbler Cuvier's redeveloping insists reiterating snowballed Salisbury castanet lampposts debilitates irruption's illegitimately Quixote embarrassing voodoo's notions suspecting Pankhurst slyly chugging stretcher illegible imputation's farting happiness's committals resound jaggedly softens carafe varsities extremity evildoers fornicated spryest gad denying aristocrat's discovery graduated convulsed flubbing fest seducer grist's retina's honeysuckle award's critics gavottes niggardliness's prizes merrymaker Lhotse's Hurley Reyna's cotton assuming derangement's Lilly fraught crazes

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