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Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

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Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#121

Post by Nursie »

cnp wrote: post #91
MichaelGG wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those facts , as you put it, really mean nothing other than maybe someone should do a study and see if there's any real correlation. How many other people had cancer, used plenty of cannabis, then died or continued to have cancer? There's billions of people in the world. That means the frequency of "Bad thing, Weird thing, Good thing" will often be nonzero for all sorts of things.

You should listen what people have to say when they describe it as a "Love Bomb", as "Seeing God", etc -- sometimes a little less quantifying can go very far in resolving problems physical or otherwise; the trick is experience and an open mind. The testimonials describing these substances as powerful healing tools is endless -- there is validity in this fact.

No, there isn't. There is validity in the fact that the substances make people think that they are healing tools.

Until or unless there is actually a quantifiable effect it is not a fact that they can be said to heal anything.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#122

Post by Nursie »

kirsebaer wrote: post #113
MichaelGG wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?

You remind me of Rabbi Zalman Schacter-Shalomi. He was inspired by LSD to explore the mystical side of Judaism. But aspects of the LSD experience bothered him: > It also wasn't Jewish enough for me. A universe in which everything was happening, regardless of whether it was kosher or not, wasn't Jewish enough. http://books.google.com/books?id=HZq2YrPxL1IC http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/zalman-schachter-shalom...…

>> any feel that modern materialism is a cheap and disappointing answer to the question of what is really actually going on in the universe, the sum total of everything that is and will be.

And these many have no better answer, in fact all they ever, ever have is some handwaving about feelings and a dietary supplement to sell you.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#123

Post by knowaveragejoe »

Retra wrote: post #66
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are numerous ways in which we're similar to apes and other organisms, and then there's also numerous things that have nothing even close in the animal kingdom(that we're aware of, anyways). So if nothing but a larger language center explains that, then it's a far bigger difference than you make it sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrCVu25wQ5s

If you're looking to say humans are categorically different from every other animal -- that is, that we have something none of them do -- then you're operating with such a level of granularity that it's necessary that you overlook small differentiating factors. The issue is not "why are humans unique, just like every species is unique" but "why are humans unique in a way no other species is?" And if you take a human…

I suggest you watch the talk either way. It's well-paced, witty and above all extremely fascinating. It centers around both the things that we previously thought were unique to humanity(but discoveries have shown we're not), as well as the ways in which we are unique("why are humans unique in a way no other species is?").

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#124

Post by fsloth »

kirsebaer wrote: post #112
fsloth wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massive drug use is usually a symptom of unsatisfying social conditions. Personally, I would find it less than satisfying if civilaztions culmination was drug induced contentednes to poor living conditions instead of actually fixing those conditions to be humanly satisfying. Instead of recreational tripping because everyday life is so mentally stunting I would dream of a world where everyday life is personally satisf…

A lot of people feel that they get new ideas and solutions to problems while on psychedelics.

I think that's a bit anecdotal. Sure, there is the lore of the systems programmer who took LSD (I wonder if he reads HN :) ) and solved his design task elegantly. But to actually claim that psychedelics makes one more creative would require psychological studies with blinds. You take the sugar pill, I'll eat the mushroom - and vice versa. Which could be done, there are metrics and tests for that - if and when the stuff becomes less controversial.

A lot of people also get new ideas and solutions to problems after a good nights sleep. I knew a person in university who swore hangovers were the most creative period for him. Humans are capable of pretty friggin amazing things au naturel - drugs can modulate performance, but to draw any conclusions in the large would require actual science to draw a distinction between personal learned habits and reproducible effects.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#125

Post by ArkyBeagle »

oldmanjay wrote: post #110
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #99

The man made the "unreliable narrator" his main device, but I think "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" should put to rest any idea that such trendy chemical amusement aids have much therapeutic value in the general case. It least puts such ideas in a position of having to work a lot harder to make their case.

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Although there are reasons to believe the incidents in the book are to some degree real, it is a story told with a purpose of entertaining, not a medical evaluation of chemical action. Have I mistaken your purpose, and if not, can you clarify the reasoning?

No, I think the book makes something akin to a moral point. That Our Humble Narrator was as much victim as perpetrator of the Better Living through Chemistry era.

It's precisely the opposite of a medical evaluation. It's a reductio ad absurbum on the idea that there's a potential Utopia within us revealed by drugs. Drugs apparently make you a new man but the new man may not be perceptually ... congruent with the old man.

I think he's describing the collapse of the experiment that included the Summer of Love.

"And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .

So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.”

Can the medicos provide structure to ameliorate this?

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#126

Post by WorldWideWayne »

exodust wrote: post #116
WorldWideWayne wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending the GP's statement about curing cancer, but could you explain your position that "things that affect the brain/mind" cannot affect "insert body part"? How do you know that? Are you saying that the brain/mind have no effect on the body? Please point to the scientific research that states that psychedelics definitely do not affect your rectum. At that point, your statement will be more valuable to me…

"Please point to the scientific research that states that psychedelics definitely do not affect your rectum" Scientific research doesn't work like that. Scientists don't set out to prove that links between arbitrary things don't exist. Because there's no research that disproves any link between toothpaste and baldness, doesn't mean we can't use common sense based on what we know about toothpaste and baldness to all b…

Thank you for the great explanation of an instance where stating a negative is not useful.

However, in this case, I don't think one can say there is there's no scientific data or even a reasonable theory to suggest that "the mind" has any affect on the healing abilities of our bodies given that the placebo effect is our rule of measure for whether a drug works or not.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#127

Post by pnevmatico »

api wrote: post #73

Psychedelics are, I think, a genuine example of a suppressed technology. They're one of two major suppressed technologies of the 20th century, with the other possibly being nuclear power.

To expand on your point, psychedelics have been suppressed even before that. Witches burnings in Europe for example, have been related to those "witches" taking psychedelic plants and potions. The Christian missionaries explicitly banned Indians from taking peyote and magic mushrooms as it was considered a "communion with the devil" in their eyes.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#128

Post by cnp »

Nursie wrote: post #121
cnp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should listen what people have to say when they describe it as a "Love Bomb", as "Seeing God", etc -- sometimes a little less quantifying can go very far in resolving problems physical or otherwise; the trick is experience and an open mind. The testimonials describing these substances as powerful healing tools is endless -- there is validity in this fact.

No, there isn't. There is validity in the fact that the substances make people think that they are healing tools. Until or unless there is actually a quantifiable effect it is not a fact that they can be said to heal anything.

A single trip report could be worth a thousand peer reviewed papers, and a thousand trip reports could create a new science -- if you're willing to listen.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#129

Post by AnimalMuppet »

codeshaman wrote: post #118
MichaelGG wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?

To understand, you have to get out of your current 'reality context'. It's very easy actually. A powerful psychedelic trip leads to a couple of simple realisations: - you are God that created this Universe experiencing the sensation of being separate, weak and mortal within this body - all living beings are the same - God experiencing himself subjectively. Including the cells in your body - God in a different 'vehicl…

Of course, the correlations between these "realizations" and any actual reality may be zero. That is, "realization" implies that there is some truth that you are realizing is true. But these things may well be not actually true, just impressions from using chemicals to temporarily alter your brains. They may not even be true on the next trip!

Acid trips as a way of actually discovering truth (rather than perception) seems to me to be hopelessly naive.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#130

Post by exodust »

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #126
exodust wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Please point to the scientific research that states that psychedelics definitely do not affect your rectum" Scientific research doesn't work like that. Scientists don't set out to prove that links between arbitrary things don't exist. Because there's no research that disproves any link between toothpaste and baldness, doesn't mean we can't use common sense based on what we know about toothpaste and baldness to all b…

Thank you for the great explanation of an instance where stating a negative is not useful. However, in this case, I don't think one can say there is there's no scientific data or even a reasonable theory to suggest that "the mind" has any affect on the healing abilities of our bodies given that the placebo effect is our rule of measure for whether a drug works or not.

Well you did ask "please point to scientific research...", so an explanation was needed for why that wasn't going to happen. Didn't mean to annoy you with that.

Placebos, sure. The thing that bothers me about placebos is the time variable. A course of placebos or drugs is also a course of time. Things heal in time, healing may have happened anyway in that time if nothing was done for those patients. Our immune system is pointed in the healing direction by nature, but significant momentum in that direction is another matter.

My own opinion on mind over body is not one of miraculous healing but of providing good conditions or foundation for healing to happen. I'm not convinced the mind on its own can deal with something like cancer without significant help (proper help, not placebos or psychedelics).

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