Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care • Hacker News Board

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#111

Post by oldmanjay » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 12:12 AM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #106

MichaelGG wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?

>I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. What physical reality are you talking about? To the best we can ascertain, we only have subjective experiences of perceptions of electromagnetic phenomena. We don't get to perceive physical reality, only our own interpretation of what is postulated as an image of the physical reality. It appears that there can be no pro…

Reliable computing technology is as revealing of an objectively existing physical reality as I need. The rules are solidly understood, do not change depending on our perception, and any "evidence" to the contrary that I've heard requires philosophical thought experiments.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#112

Post by kirsebaer » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 1:58 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #89

codeshaman wrote: post #6

They can trigger a paradigm shift in many other areas, not just mental health care. Except it's so hard to explain this to a 'normal' person, who's never taken any. "If God were to permit you a brief voyage into the divine process, let you whirl for a second into the atomic nucleus or spin you out on a light-year trip through the galaxies, how on earth would you describe what you saw when you got back, breathless, to…

Massive drug use is usually a symptom of unsatisfying social conditions. Personally, I would find it less than satisfying if civilaztions culmination was drug induced contentednes to poor living conditions instead of actually fixing those conditions to be humanly satisfying. Instead of recreational tripping because everyday life is so mentally stunting I would dream of a world where everyday life is personally satisf…

A lot of people feel that they get new ideas and solutions to problems while on psychedelics.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#113

Post by kirsebaer » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #103

kirsebaer wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about the song Amazing Grace: "How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me; I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see". That was written by a guy who had abandoned his career as the captain of a slave-trading ship after having a spiritual awakening. The transcendental, mystical, transformative, touching-infinity experiences that people report from psychedelics go far beyond any philosophical…

I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?

You remind me of Rabbi Zalman Schacter-Shalomi. He was inspired by LSD to explore the mystical side of Judaism. But aspects of the LSD experience bothered him:

> It also wasn't Jewish enough for me. A universe in which everything was happening, regardless of whether it was kosher or not, wasn't Jewish enough.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HZq2YrPxL1IC

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/zalman-schachter-shalom...

Perhaps you are also a bit bothered by some aspects of your experiences that do not totally agree with materialism? Excuse me, but do you possibly feel ashamed to have thought certain things while tripping, perhaps concerned that you were delusional? Or maybe not, not everybody thinks that way.

Are you truly "impressed and amazed" by chemistry alone? Many feel that modern materialism is a cheap and disappointing answer to the question of what is really actually going on in the universe, the sum total of everything that is and will be. But of course chemistry is part of it, and it is really amazing.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#114

Post by kirsebaer » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 2:46 AM UTC

marincounty wrote: post #32

sanoli wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've known about thirty people who have used Lsd routinely for years, and I have to agree with you. The only significant difference is that some of them talk like it drammatically changes them. The effect doesn't seem much different from the people I know who really like a hobby and exxagerate its effects. I of course know lsd is something serious and psychedelically powerful, and agree it should be studied.

I am pro drugs. I actually feel most drugs, except antiboiotics, should be available over the counter. That said, the one drug I have seem people injest, and come back slightly different people is LSD. I have never taken the drug, but I had two close, intelligent friends in high school go off to U.C. Santa Cruz and literally come back different people. We were all so young, and still finding ourselfs, but the differe…

You probably know many other people who have tried psychedelics. Around 20% of young and middle-aged men in the US have tried LSD or magic mushrooms, but people tend to not discuss this in public. (People who publically talk about their personal psychedelic use are, as a group, more likely to not care about social approval. This has fueled stereotypes about psychedelic users. But this is rapidly changing as more people 'come out' and the psychedelic users realize that we are everywhere.)

Maybe try talking about psychedelics with your friends and colleagues and you may get some new perspectives on the topic. (I would recommend to not immediately mention that your overall personal impression of psychedelic users is negative. That could scare people from opening up to you.)

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#115

Post by jsprogrammer » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 3:19 AM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #111

jsprogrammer wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. What physical reality are you talking about? To the best we can ascertain, we only have subjective experiences of perceptions of electromagnetic phenomena. We don't get to perceive physical reality, only our own interpretation of what is postulated as an image of the physical reality. It appears that there can be no pro…

Reliable computing technology is as revealing of an objectively existing physical reality as I need. The rules are solidly understood, do not change depending on our perception, and any "evidence" to the contrary that I've heard requires philosophical thought experiments.

>Reliable computing technology is as revealing of an objectively existing physical reality as I need.

What do you mean by this?

All you need is Boolean algebra to derive every reliable aspect of our computing technology.

01~&

Yes, you need a machine that can "execute it", but every reliable thing that a current computing machine will do is predicted by consecutive and parallel applications of the truth table:

    a|b|a~&b
    -|-|----
    0|0| 1
    0|1| 1
    1|0| 1
    1|1| 0

Do you mean that Boolean algebra is the objectively existing physical reality; is a part of the objectively existing physical reality; or, is only evidence of an objectively existing physical reality? If it is only evidence, in what way is it evidence?

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#116

Post by exodust » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 7:49 AM UTC

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #72

exodust wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And they could, in theory, cure cancer...." Did you really just say that? Cancer of the liver; cancer of the rectum; cancer of the [insert body part], has nothing to do with the actions that psychedelics have on your body. Psychedelics are for the brain and mind, not the abnormal cells attacking your rectum. The only mention of cancer in the article is treating cancer related anxiety. Getting high and curing cancer…

I'm not defending the GP's statement about curing cancer, but could you explain your position that "things that affect the brain/mind" cannot affect "insert body part"? How do you know that? Are you saying that the brain/mind have no effect on the body? Please point to the scientific research that states that psychedelics definitely do not affect your rectum. At that point, your statement will be more valuable to me…

"Please point to the scientific research that states that psychedelics definitely do not affect your rectum"

Scientific research doesn't work like that. Scientists don't set out to prove that links between arbitrary things don't exist.

Because there's no research that disproves any link between toothpaste and baldness, doesn't mean we can't use common sense based on what we know about toothpaste and baldness to all but rule out any link in the absence of that research. What we do know about toothpaste and baldness, does not point or suggest any link between the two.

Likewise, what we know about psychedelics and cancer of the rectum, is that the two would unlikely be connected. From the extremely small amounts of drugs needed to affect consciousness, to the aggressive disease attacking your cells. Even in a biological sense they are worlds apart.

Finally, the "mind over body" idea is more about our minds over our healthy bodies - keeping things such as blood flow and other systems healthy. Once those cancerous tumours start growing, there's no scientific data or even a reasonable theory to suggest "the mind", be it under the influence of drugs or not, has any fighting ability to repair localised cancerous cells and prevent further spreading.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#117

Post by just_had_coffee » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:11 AM UTC

trxcllnt wrote: post #83

DanBC wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one elephant died. Although the elephant got a considerably larger dose (297 mg!!) than people would, and the experimenters handled the situation poorly. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/feb/26/research.scie...

From the end of that article: "While the experiment is quoted as evidence of LSD's toxicity, it seems most likely that the Thorazine or the combination of drugs killed Tusko, not the acid. Lending credence to this, in 1984 psychologist Ronald K Siegel repeated the experiment with two elephants, using LSD only. Both survived."

How could either of those instances have got approval from an ethics committee? :/

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#118

Post by codeshaman » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:33 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #103

kirsebaer wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about the song Amazing Grace: "How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me; I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see". That was written by a guy who had abandoned his career as the captain of a slave-trading ship after having a spiritual awakening. The transcendental, mystical, transformative, touching-infinity experiences that people report from psychedelics go far beyond any philosophical…

I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?

To understand, you have to get out of your current 'reality context'. It's very easy actually.

A powerful psychedelic trip leads to a couple of simple realisations:

- you are God that created this Universe experiencing the sensation of being separate, weak and mortal within this body

- all living beings are the same - God experiencing himself subjectively. Including the cells in your body - God in a different 'vehicle'. Hence 'we are one'. Hence the necessity to be respectful towards all of nature - they're all you and you will experience all the interactions with your 'current' self.

- you have been here since the beginning of time and will 'exist' forever.

- Life is a trip, a story, a simulation. You will wake up from it one day. It's hard to believe it, because it's so 'real'. But everybody will get 'it' when they die.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#119

Post by codeshaman » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 10:03 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #89

codeshaman wrote: post #6

They can trigger a paradigm shift in many other areas, not just mental health care. Except it's so hard to explain this to a 'normal' person, who's never taken any. "If God were to permit you a brief voyage into the divine process, let you whirl for a second into the atomic nucleus or spin you out on a light-year trip through the galaxies, how on earth would you describe what you saw when you got back, breathless, to…

Massive drug use is usually a symptom of unsatisfying social conditions. Personally, I would find it less than satisfying if civilaztions culmination was drug induced contentednes to poor living conditions instead of actually fixing those conditions to be humanly satisfying. Instead of recreational tripping because everyday life is so mentally stunting I would dream of a world where everyday life is personally satisf…

Oh, but that's the whole paradox of this life - 'satisfaction' is a moving target, not a fixed point.

In fact, this is what life is about - getting from the current 'not so satisfied' point to the next 'a bit more satisfied'.

First we have our bodies - which need food and shelter and can get sick and hurt. So one of our tasks in life is to constantly keep our bodies satisfied - hunger, thirst, piss, shit, cold, hot, pain, horny. This takes a lot of our energy/time.

Then we have the effects of mortality - parents, children, friends, pets - every living being dies eventually and this generates suffering inside us (unless we are the one dying, which generates suffering inside everyone we love).

Then we have the whole of our society - competition, job, class struggle, bugs in our software... too many to enumerate.

Total satisfaction ('bliss') is only possible for short periods of time (until hunger strikes or the bladder's full) and it's a function of a realisation, of letting go, of simplifying the requirements for 'satisfied'. This is what the monks do - they let go of everything 'worldly' in exchange for a much simpler achievement of 'satisfied'.

But then, of course, we don't want to live like monks, so we want more comfort and hence a more complex problem to solve.

Re: Psychedelics Could Trigger A 'Paradigm Shift' In Mental Health Care

#120

Post by MichaelGG » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 10:10 AM UTC

kirsebaer wrote: post #113

MichaelGG wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?

You remind me of Rabbi Zalman Schacter-Shalomi. He was inspired by LSD to explore the mystical side of Judaism. But aspects of the LSD experience bothered him: > It also wasn't Jewish enough for me. A universe in which everything was happening, regardless of whether it was kosher or not, wasn't Jewish enough. http://books.google.com/books?id=HZq2YrPxL1IC http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/zalman-schachter-shalom...…

No, I'm not bothered. I find it richly rewarding. I just know that the real world, nature, is worth admiring and being totally impressed and blown away with. As an example, I find life explained in natural terms and diversity of life via evolution to be far more inspiring and impressive (and elegant) than life explained via divine will. Not that you're suggesting that but just as a comparison.

I think it's worth encouraging people to be impressed with physical reality, with the amazing stuff that gets produced that way, rather than needing to discard reality as if it wasn't sufficient enough.

For an even simpler and perhaps baser phenomenon: the female form, for me. Without going into details, I find it rather amazing how something so "ordinary" can, at times, produce such powerful emotion/experience (not even referring to actual sex). Sure, perhaps it's not quite as strong as psychedelics, but I've yet to hear anyone seriously suggest that physical attraction needs explanations beyond materialism. Why should acid be qualitatively different? (I've experienced real delusions, too - all seems perfectly in line with a materialistic view of the mind.)