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A new approach to web performance

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Re: A new approach to web performance

#151

Post by gmfawcett »

cramforce wrote: post #143
scrollaway wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not "combining" standards though. As other comments pointed out, this is not a subset of html. It's a separate spec, based on a subset of html, which is different enough that it's not quite compatible. For example, what's with the amp-prefixed tags? Why amp-img instead of img with data-amp- attributes? You also didn't address my first point: If you're building this for people who don't make the effort right no…

I think the other comments are wrong. Custom elements are a part of the web platform http://www.w3.org/TR/custom-elements/ We use amp-img instead of the img tag to be able to control when resources load (read not load them unless actually needed). Doing this with a different hack like is possible but a less explicit hack. To your first point: It might have been just the right point in time, but maybe it isn't. I argu…

The custom-elements document you linked to is a W3C Working Draft, not a Recommendation. It might someday be part of the Web platform (w.r.t. standardization), but for now it's just under discussion.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#152

Post by dang »

rasz_pl wrote: post #124
cramforce wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might get it :) There isn't that much to it. AMP is as much about technology as finally getttig that tech adopted. Since AMP is built on web tech there is nothing in it that you cannot chose to do yourself The problem we are solving is that many sites don't.

You have an uncanny ability to write a lot of words that collectively mean nothing. Are you saying its WeB-Scale? Did you wear a hipster had while posting this?

Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#153

Post by cramforce »

gmfawcett wrote: post #151
cramforce wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the other comments are wrong. Custom elements are a part of the web platform http://www.w3.org/TR/custom-elements/ We use amp-img instead of the img tag to be able to control when resources load (read not load them unless actually needed). Doing this with a different hack like is possible but a less explicit hack. To your first point: It might have been just the right point in time, but maybe it isn't. I argu…

The custom-elements document you linked to is a W3C Working Draft, not a Recommendation. It might someday be part of the Web platform (w.r.t. standardization), but for now it's just under discussion.

It has an implementation in Chrome and Firefox and both Microsoft Edge and the WebKit teams have indicated that they will support it. On top of that there are 2 super excellent polyfills.

In the world of the web platform it doesn't get much more standard than that.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#154

Post by felipeerias »

cramforce wrote: post #147
ducuboy wrote: post #38

What annoys me is how Google is selling this project. At least Facebook is honest about their Instant Articles. This isn't an "open standard" guys, and it's not about performance! It's about the single piece of js that's allowed on AMP pages and the amp-tags such as and that only Google controls. Performance is just the story they are selling in exchange of absolute control of the Web. After all, any publisher can ea…

First of all this is not a Google-only project. There are many partners. See e.g. https://blog.twitter.com/2015/introducing-accelerated-mobile... supports all kinds of tracking. You just give it a URL. Ironically it does not work with Google Analytics but we'll fix that eventually. Most others should work. currently supports these ad networks https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/builtins/a... We are supe…

Taking into account that Google "happens to be" the largest ad company around, it is hard to not see this as a defensive move to protect themselves at a time when the disproportionately negative impact of ad-tech has put their business at the mercy of adblockers and native apps.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#155

Post by reitanqild »

rasz_pl wrote: post #122
coldtea wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember who actually killed it? Yeah, that was also Google.. by discontinuing their Reader - a very good tool with lots of users but no revenue. If a single company killing a sigle product could kill RSS, then it wasn't that alive in the first place. The fact is, after 10 years of RSS being available in blogs, news sites and elsewhere, Reader still had an insignificant number of users in the web scale of things. A…

>Reader still had an insignificant number of users in the web scale of things. A few tens of millions an order of magnitude more than G+

Never really got used to Reader.

G+ I have used a bit. I guess I'm not alone.

Just a data point since it seems to be unreasonably many G+ haters around here.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#156

Post by nevir »

ducuboy wrote: post #43
ducuboy wrote: post #38

What annoys me is how Google is selling this project. At least Facebook is honest about their Instant Articles. This isn't an "open standard" guys, and it's not about performance! It's about the single piece of js that's allowed on AMP pages and the amp-tags such as and that only Google controls. Performance is just the story they are selling in exchange of absolute control of the Web. After all, any publisher can ea…

AMP is just broken HTML, hardly a standard. https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.c...

Custom elements are not "broken" HTML. They're very close to being a finalized standard, too:

http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/custom/

Re: A new approach to web performance

#157

Post by ttepasse »

cramforce wrote: post #136
scrollaway wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's with the approach then? Why would websites choose to use AMP (whatever "using AMP" means), when they don't apply common sense in the first place? Forgive the skepticism but this screams XKCD927.

One of the things that AMP allows is to know that is it save to prerender a page. Documents can be instructed by a viewer to e.g. only load resources visible above the fold and absolutely no external JS. With general web content prerendering is pretty dangerous and you certainly cannot do it with say more than 1 doc at a time because it may use arbitrary bandwidth and CPU. That allows for instant feeling loading of p…

> One of the things that AMP allows is to know that is it save to prerender a page. Documents can be instructed by a viewer to e.g. only load resources visible above the fold and absolutely no external JS.

Which begs the questions: Who prerenders and on what criteria?

Assume page A which has a link to AMP-forked page B.

Does that link need rel=prerender for every browser? Does one need to query the AMP-ness of every page one links to? Does one need to be Googles page cache to link to AMP-pages and get in the benefit of prerendering?

Or is the prerendering implemented in the AMP runtime? Does it only work if page A and page B are both AMP-enhanced?

Re: A new approach to web performance

#158

Post by gorhill »

cramforce wrote: post #147
ducuboy wrote: post #38

What annoys me is how Google is selling this project. At least Facebook is honest about their Instant Articles. This isn't an "open standard" guys, and it's not about performance! It's about the single piece of js that's allowed on AMP pages and the amp-tags such as and that only Google controls. Performance is just the story they are selling in exchange of absolute control of the Web. After all, any publisher can ea…

First of all this is not a Google-only project. There are many partners. See e.g. https://blog.twitter.com/2015/introducing-accelerated-mobile... supports all kinds of tracking. You just give it a URL. Ironically it does not work with Google Analytics but we'll fix that eventually. Most others should work. currently supports these ad networks https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/builtins/a... We are supe…

> You suggest elsewhere there is revenue sharing involved, but that is not true.

It's the data sharing which is worrying. Exactly which entities have access to what data gathered by `ampproject.org`?

Re: A new approach to web performance

#159

Post by bitwize »

GFischer wrote: post #109
ducuboy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but that still shows how much Google cares about open standards. And did you just say "few tens of millions" of users is insignificant? How many users are we here on Hacker News again?

It's, ironically, a case of the "embrace and extinguish" philosophy that Microsoft was reviled for. I remember reading posts by several people which said they weren't going to build a RSS reader because they didn't want to compete with Google Reader.. and then they went ahead and killed it. RSS didn't really "take off" with mainstream users (I guess today's equivalent is Twitter), but it filled an interesting niche.…

As a distributed platform, the internet has failed. The solution is to rebuild the OS and network from the ground up: http//www.urbit.org

/s

Re: A new approach to web performance

#160

Post by magicalist »

ducuboy wrote: post #65
oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was as annoyed as the next person when Google killed Reader but, to be honest, RSS was killed off for typical users way before that when browser manufacturers dropped/hid support for it. I still use RSS every day, as do many of our customers.

Indeed, also Google Chrome.

Chrome never had support. RSS support was always (and still is) from extensions.
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