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A new approach to web performance

ampproject.org

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Re: A new approach to web performance

#121
"Performance is just the story they are selling in exchange of absolute control of the Web."

To be fair, they are not the only ones that use this "story" as a ploy to get more control over users (and hence gather more saleable personal information).

Phrases like "make the web faster" are disingenuous and should not pass any intelligent user's BS filter.

The very reason the web is slow is because of these companies which need to serve ads and other crud to survive. That means more DNS lookups, more TCP connections, more HTTP requests, more Javascript, longer URL's, more unwanted IMG's (e.g., beacons), more tags, etc., etc. The list is so long I cannot even hope to capture it all. That end result is simple: staring at a screen waiting for the computer to respond. Not to mention frequent leakage of personal information.

As a user of netcat and text-only browsers that retrieve pages in milliseconds, I am astounded at how long users today are willing to wait for their content (i.e., "page loads"). I also run my own web servers at home to serve content to my family's mobile devices. I am well-aware of what (i.e., who) slows down "the Web".

The user does not start from the assumption that she needs to (down)load "resources" (as in Uniform Resource Locator) from a number of advertisers for every page she views. Those are the assumptions that the web company starts with. Those are the constraints they must work within. Not true for users.

I do not need Google DNS. I run my own locally, primed with all the domains I routinely visit. No remote DNS cache is going to be faster than my loopback.

Nor do I need HTTP/2. I just use HTTP/1.1 pipelining to retrieve 100's of pages of content, usually 100 pages at a time. HTTP/2 is something the web companies may need to accomplish their goals of serving ads and collecting personal information. But it is not something users need.

To drive adoption they must convince users that users need these "improvements". So the web companies purport to offer "solutions" to the problem they themselves created: a slow, bloated www.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#122
post #84
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about RSS? That offered good performance, was widely adopted and was a real standard working for both publishers and consumers. Remember who actually killed it? Yeah, that was also Google.. by discontinuing their Reader - a very good tool with lots of users but no revenue. That's how much open standards matter. Too bad @aaronsw is not around anymore, he would have said something about AMP.

> Remember who actually killed it? Yeah, that was also Google.. by discontinuing their Reader - a very good tool with lots of users but no revenue. If a single company killing a sigle product could kill RSS, then it wasn't that alive in the first place. The fact is, after 10 years of RSS being available in blogs, news sites and elsewhere, Reader still had an insignificant number of users in the web scale of things. A…

>Reader still had an insignificant number of users in the web scale of things. A few tens of millions

an order of magnitude more than G+

Re: A new approach to web performance

#123
post #121

"Performance is just the story they are selling in exchange of absolute control of the Web." To be fair, they are not the only ones that use this "story" as a ploy to get more control over users (and hence gather more saleable personal information). Phrases like "make the web faster" are disingenuous and should not pass any intelligent user's BS filter. The very reason the web is slow is because of these companies wh…

So I as a user put up with all that loading of resources, because I don't have the time and money (resources) to set up my own version of the web. And because I consume a lot of content I don't otherwise pay for.

To pretend that the infrastructure that allows companies to pay for the content I want to consume is incidental to the true purpose of the web (text documents??) is pretty narrow.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they selling, exactly? Why does this need to be a framework, with js and all that? I'm not asking cynically, and following it up with "oh, they should just do x instead".... I legitimately do not understand what's going on here. What's the added functionality? I read the article twice, I don't get it. I'm going through the spec, I don't get it. I looked at the article source, I really don't get it, it's just…

You might get it :) There isn't that much to it. AMP is as much about technology as finally getttig that tech adopted. Since AMP is built on web tech there is nothing in it that you cannot chose to do yourself The problem we are solving is that many sites don't.

You have an uncanny ability to write a lot of words that collectively mean nothing. Are you saying its WeB-Scale? Did you wear a hipster had while posting this?

Re: A new approach to web performance

#125

Maybe it's a sign of me getting old, but I have never understood the thought process behind building systems which server static content - newspapers, blogs - which require active processing for every request for every user. These are systems where the read/write ratios are often 1000:1. Ten years ago this was symptomized by systems which pulled the same content out of a database for every single request. We treated…

Implementing caching servers and horizontal scaling is complicated and requires talented people who typically need to be on call. It's lot of complicated moving parts, which can easily go wrong outside office hours when a site unexpectedly gets popular.

Where as with a static site, the complicated bit is only in the updates. A single server can handle massive numbers of requests and it's easy to scale further with a CDN.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#126
post #120
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're putting ads in custom tags that makes it extremely easy to block them. I think it's nothing so sinister as a "fork of the web", but a badly thought out approach of going back to faster loading web1.0 by recognizing that quite a lot of JS adds no value to the end user.

It also becomes extremely easy for browser vendors to not allow blocking them.

The closed source ones, perhaps.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but that still shows how much Google cares about open standards. And did you just say "few tens of millions" of users is insignificant? How many users are we here on Hacker News again?

> And did you just say "few tens of millions" of users is insignificant? Yes. > How many users are we here on Hacker News again? I'd say well under a million (or around that at most). What does that have to do with anything? Did anybody say that HN has a significant amount of users web-wise? Slashdot and then Digg, which were both something like 100 times HN in size fell off the side and nobody much cared.

I would say that Hacker News' few hundred thousand users are extremely significant both for YC and web-wise. I really hope we'll not end up with a Facebook-only Internet because that's the only service big enough to keep running.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they selling, exactly? Why does this need to be a framework, with js and all that? I'm not asking cynically, and following it up with "oh, they should just do x instead".... I legitimately do not understand what's going on here. What's the added functionality? I read the article twice, I don't get it. I'm going through the spec, I don't get it. I looked at the article source, I really don't get it, it's just…

You might get it :) There isn't that much to it. AMP is as much about technology as finally getttig that tech adopted. Since AMP is built on web tech there is nothing in it that you cannot chose to do yourself The problem we are solving is that many sites don't.

So what's with the approach then? Why would websites choose to use AMP (whatever "using AMP" means), when they don't apply common sense in the first place?

Forgive the skepticism but this screams XKCD927.

Re: A new approach to web performance

#130

I personally choose to block ubiquitous 3rd parties by default[1], to fight both bloat AND privacy exposure. This AMP project reduces the bloat but at the cost of increased privacy exposure. If I globally block `ampproject.org` when visiting a AMP-enabled web pages, the pages do not render at all. My understanding is that now all "Google and its partners" have foiled the ability of visitors to protect their privacy w…

I'm curious why you say "when visiting a AMP-enabled web pages, the pages do not render at all". I'm not seeing the same result. The first two 'AMP' pages I tested loaded very quickly and were easily readable.

I use Firefox with NoScript, which is definitely blocking the JS from ampproject.org. I also use Privacy Badger and uBlock Origin (thanks btw) and I'm not having any trouble at all. Here are the figures for the two pages I've tested with so far:

1- Visiting https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/ loads a perfectly readable page weighing 16.05kB in 40ms. It's just one file, the HTML document.

2- Visiting The Verge's demo page http://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2015/10/7/9467149/googl... also loads a single perfectly readable HTML document weighing 17.6kB in 184ms.

I've used NoScript for quite a while and while I don't expect every page to work perfectly with it, the speed gains are incredible! AMP and NoScript aren't directly comparable but they seem to be accomplishing the same thing for me. Only one of them is also blocking third-party tracking and delivering feather-light pages which nearly always render acceptably.

Can you please clarify whether you mean the pages are totally blank, or if they just don't render the same as if you had allowed them to execute JS? (obviously if you globally block ampproject.org you can't access even their index.html page but that's not the info I'm after...)

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