Why we're leaving Heroku • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#61

Post by jrochkind1 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 11:31 AM UTC

snug wrote: post #18

Why would a company want to endorse this? What is the upside for them?

Well, according to the EFF's summary:

> granting companies blanket civil and criminal immunity from any existing privacy law in the process.

Immunity from civil and criminal liability is something companies might unsurprisingly be interested in.

One doesn't need to suppose dramas where they are worried about being blackballed from government contracts unless they support it, as other commenters do. Their self interest in the provisions of the law itself which lessen their vulnerability to civil lawsuits or criminal prosecution seems sufficient. It's more of a bribe than a threat.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#62

Post by tptacek » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 1:33 PM UTC

skissane wrote: post #59

belorn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the shared information is only for IDS alert sharing where any irrelevant information to cyber security is removed, then why do they need immunity from privacy and antitrust laws? Surely companies in the US can today report to the police if someone gain illegal access to servers, do a DDOS, or sends fishing/malware to them. If the police then involve the FBI with the case while requesting relevant customer informa…

Surely the company can just go to the FBI/DHS/etc directly if they wish? IANAL, but if a company has information which it reasonably believes to be evidence of a crime, what court would find it illegal for them to volunteer it to the federal government?

No, they in the general case cannot.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#63

Post by tptacek » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 1:33 PM UTC

slantedview wrote: post #41

tptacek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close; it's (I think) the third incarnation. Fun fact: the third incarnation is much worse than the second, which EFF/FFTF vigorously (and, I think, dishonestly) campaigned against. Virtually nobody who campaigns against these bills ever takes the time to read them, despite how remarkably easy it is now to read not only the bills but the amendments it collects as it goes through the legislative process. And still, as…

> despite how remarkably easy it is now to read You must have more free time than I do. I'm satisfied to let the EFF read it and base my conclusions off of theirs.

Yikes.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#64

Post by rip747 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 1:37 PM UTC

kasia66 wrote: post #58

bdcravens wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud66 is a pretty close match to Heroku.

Cloud 66 provides full stack container management as a service in production, that offers Heroku-like functionality on any cloud provider or on your own server, http://www.cloud66.com/ (Disclaimer: I work at Cloud 66)

Is it standard nowadays to charge customers for support? Checking out the pricing (and correct me if I'm wrong), does it really cost $5000/month to have 24/7 support? That seems crazy to me.

Now granted I pay about $300/month for the VM I have with my hosting provider, but I can pick up a phone at any hour and talk to a tech when things go south.

I really don't care how good a service is, I want to talk with a breathing human being when my business is down.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#65

Post by untog » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:12 PM UTC

aagha wrote: post #50

superuser2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What election outcome do you imagine is going to make this better?

The one where a candidate like Sanders, who has stood up against government surveillance, takes steps to put a stop to it.

What primary outcome are you expecting that results in Sanders being a candidate you can vote for in the election?

In any case, this issue is so far down the list of things the average American is concerned about that it's impossible to imagine meaningful change happening because of it.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#66

Post by glitchdout » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

dmichulke wrote: post #57

greatthanks wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except for the German government, of course. What do you mean?

They don't care whether Germans' phone calls are tapped, the chancellor's phone is tapped or German companies are subject to industrial espionage. Each of the above provably happened and the responses were (in descending order of their "strength"): - the chancellor cancelling the phone contract with Verizon - asking the US for an apology (didn't happen) - asking the US to sign a no-spy treaty (which would be purely t…

Don't forget

- Not caring that its intelligence agencies are selling their own citizens metadata (and content)

http://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2015-08/xkeyscore-nsa...

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/08/germany-hands-ove...

This has not been proven (yet).

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#67

Post by joshmn » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:58 PM UTC

rip747 wrote: post #64

kasia66 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud 66 provides full stack container management as a service in production, that offers Heroku-like functionality on any cloud provider or on your own server, http://www.cloud66.com/ (Disclaimer: I work at Cloud 66)

Is it standard nowadays to charge customers for support? Checking out the pricing (and correct me if I'm wrong), does it really cost $5000/month to have 24/7 support? That seems crazy to me. Now granted I pay about $300/month for the VM I have with my hosting provider, but I can pick up a phone at any hour and talk to a tech when things go south. I really don't care how good a service is, I want to talk with a breath…

> $300/month for the VM

High-availability, automatic failover, managed, with diamond-cut SSDs I hope? Who are you with? For that money you should just pick up a box.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#68

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

Zaheer wrote: post #40

Anyone have experience with Heroku alternatives like Openshift Origin?

I've worked on Cloud Foundry. It has the fastest growing sales of any open source product in history.

Mostly, I trust the way it's built. Apart from components integrated from upstream, every line is TDD'd and 100% pair programmed.

You can use public installations on Pivotal Web Services (by the company I work for) or BlueMix (by some plucky startup from Armonk). Or you can install your own on OpenStack, vSphere or AWS.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#69

Post by 13thLetter » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #51

13thLetter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any election outcome where politicians who fail to oppose this, whether Democratic or Republican, are out of office and replaced with those of a different party, is the path to making this better. If you keep throwing the bums out -- and don't tell me that's impossible, no matter how many ads they buy they can't directly control what vote gets cast -- eventually you'll have bums in office who have a better sense of s…

You seem to imagine that the public overwhelmingly opposes surveillance but politicians are simply ignoring its wishes. The public is clearly capable of voicing moral outrage: see gay marriage, abortion, and the Black Lives Matter movement. Where are the protests about surveillance? Why haven't the data-driven, opportunistic people who run campaigns identified this opportunity and seized it? Where are the people who…

> You seem to imagine that the public overwhelmingly opposes surveillance but politicians are simply ignoring its wishes.

Not so! I think that the number of people who care about surveillance is small, and the number willing to change their vote because of it is microscopic. But, you know what? Nobody said lobbying for political change is easy.

> If you could find the votes to enact such a strategy in a way that politicians would understand they were being punished for surveillance and not just subject to the irrationality of the American people like they always are, wouldn't it be much simpler to rally those people around support for a candidate that will actually dismantle the national security apparatus?

It would be simpler, but it would be less likely to succeed. Even if you find such a candidate, and even if they were sincere in their promises, they're still likely to end up steamrollered by all the other politicians who don't meet those standards. If you change the incentives, though, you've changed the entire system and now all the insincere politicians -- which is 95% of them -- are on your side. Victory will inevitably follow.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#70

Post by PhasmaFelis » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #36

rdegges wrote: post #7

I've got quite a lot invested in Heroku, it's honestly really disappointing to see Salesforce do something like this. It's the responsibility of EVERYONE in the industry (especially larger tech companies) to take a stand against government, and help push for individual privacy.

I disagree. I think it's great that you want to push for individual privacy, but I don't think everyone in the industry has a responsibility to push for what you want. Everyone gets to choose what they want to advocate for.

Working for a corporation does not relieve you of the basic human responsibility to stand against evil. The fact that many, even most, humans ignore this responsibility only makes it more important.