Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 241 posts

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#101

Post by chc »

gearoidoc wrote: post #69
chc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Smule's apparent lack of interest in investigating whether their allegations have merit, it seems a little hard to imagine that their side of things actually does have merit.

How can you declare their lack of interest in investigating - the Medium post is 2 hours old. If you think that its simply a case of not using your old employers code then you're naive (See: The Social Network). FTR: I'm not on either side here but I'm unsure if this blog post was the wisest move.

> How can you declare their lack of interest in investigating

Both by Shred's account and Y Combinator's, Shred has repeatedly offered to submit their code for third-party review to see if it is copied from whatever Smule thinks it's copied from, but Smule has declined every time ("claiming, although they most certainly know better, that Shred could have successfully obfuscated their code making such a review useless," per Geoff Ralston's post).

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#103

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mikeshreds wrote: post #41
paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

Hi Paul thanks for your comments. In the code comparison, the 3rd party will also be able to look at methods (in addition to code copied directly). We're more than happy to include proprietary methods in the review. On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole. What do you think is our burden of responsibility in proving we did not steal ideas our opponen…

I've seen this kind of stunt before, in the SCO v. IBM lawsuit. Your defense is to get the court to require the other side to state specifically what they think you stole, or to drop the claim.

The law is on your side here. Vague claims aren't a part of a valid lawsuit. "Failure to state a claim actionable at law" may be the phrase you need.

But what you really need is lawyers, and IANAL.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#104

Post by solotronics »

dmourati wrote: post #51
snake117 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same feeling when I read how they told Mark to keep the laptop. I wish you guys all the best and hope this gets sorted out soon.

I get the whole leaving on good terms, really. But this whole "hey, we just want you to keep the code and answer questions for our other engineers" aspect really ought to have set off red flags. Pro-tip, hand write a nice letter to your boss/colleagues on your way out. Bingo, no burned bridges, and no risk of law suits for holding on to company IP.

Hand written with a pen? From the perspective of a millennial I am curious about if it is more polite to email or hand over a written letter.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#105

Post by sandworm101 »

mikeshreds wrote: post #92
sandworm101 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Trade Secret Law - N/A. They are former employees. Non Compete Agreement - Agreements in restraint of competititon are void in California. I would respectfully disagree with these assertions. Trade Secret is not void just because someone is a former employee. You don't get to walk out the door with the secret recipes. And there are many exceptions to california's ban on non-compete agreements. Non-compete agreements…

Just want to point out that Smule has not cited trade secret theft as a claim against us. And on non-compete, Mark and I were just employees, not officers of any sort. Neither of us was a manager with direct reports.

There are two ways to 'win' a civil suit. Counter their allegations, or assert your own counterclaims. It may be possible to assert that they have taken your trade secrets.

Talk to lawyers. In offices. Not online. Sign a client agreement. Pay them money. Beyond that, you cannot get any reliable advice from anyone here.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#106

Post by AnimalMuppet »

rfrank wrote: post #95
kumarm wrote: post #54

The only time I heard Jeff Smith was in Stanford Podcast[1]. I listened to every podcast on Stanford (DFJ Entrepreneurial Thought Leaders lecture series) and particularly remember Jeff Smith because I thought he came out wrong from the talk. His statement "Palantir is evil" because they hired a guy who smule was trying to recruit. Seriously you are giving a talk to inspire future entrepreneurs and use that to bad mou…

Calling Palantir evil strikes me as pretty fair.

But calling Palantir evil for that reason is not.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#107

Post by tlrobinson »

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

"source code that has been copied verbatim."

There are tools that will detect source code with similar but not identical structure.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#108

Post by tomasien »

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

It's fair to plead for people not to read to much into this. But your suggestion that this is a "bullshit pissing contest with 0 innocent parties" seems ridiculous to me, given that a well funded company is suing a less funded company it doesn't compete with. You think that is the most likely scenario? Really??

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#109

Post by marnett »

rfrank wrote: post #95
kumarm wrote: post #54

The only time I heard Jeff Smith was in Stanford Podcast[1]. I listened to every podcast on Stanford (DFJ Entrepreneurial Thought Leaders lecture series) and particularly remember Jeff Smith because I thought he came out wrong from the talk. His statement "Palantir is evil" because they hired a guy who smule was trying to recruit. Seriously you are giving a talk to inspire future entrepreneurs and use that to bad mou…

Calling Palantir evil strikes me as pretty fair.

how are they evil? I feel like I've missed something.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#110

Post by sandworm101 »

grizzles wrote: post #99
sandworm101 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Trade Secret Law - N/A. They are former employees. Non Compete Agreement - Agreements in restraint of competititon are void in California. I would respectfully disagree with these assertions. Trade Secret is not void just because someone is a former employee. You don't get to walk out the door with the secret recipes. And there are many exceptions to california's ban on non-compete agreements. Non-compete agreements…

There was no "misappropriation" here. Employment does not qualify as "improper means". [1] Just imagine for a moment the slippery slope this would create if companies were able to criminalize knowledge on the basis of prior employment. Literally any work process you performed could be considered protected IP. You could work one job and never be employable again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Trade_Secrets…

Yes. That is reality. Talk to anyone in aerospace. Techniques developed for employer A cannot be taken to employer B. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that there are laws on the books to prevent it.

Imagine the slippery slope if former employees of Coke were allowed to take the recipe over to Pepsi. We wouldn't have any long-lived product lines. (That actually happened. Pepsi called the FBI)

For below: 18 U.S. Code § 1832 - Theft of trade secrets (the really really short version)

"Whoever ... knowingly ... steals, or without authorization appropriates ... or by fraud, artifice, or deception obtains such information ... shall ... be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."

Post reply on HN