When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup • Hacker News Board

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#41

Post by mikeshreds » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:01 PM UTC

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

Hi Paul thanks for your comments.

In the code comparison, the 3rd party will also be able to look at methods (in addition to code copied directly). We're more than happy to include proprietary methods in the review.

On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole. What do you think is our burden of responsibility in proving we did not steal ideas our opponents won't even specify?

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#42

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:01 PM UTC

rl3 wrote: post #32

Filing frivolous litigation against a YC sartup seems like a fantastic way to become blacklisted virtually everywhere. Maybe they didn't get the memo.

Isn't it a bit early to call this frivolous?

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#43

Post by compumike » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #37

shostack wrote: post #4

Genuinely curious for your legal counsel's take on you posting such an article publicly. I've always thought the prevailing wisdom shared by all lawyers was "don't talk." Also, in this day and age of using services like Github for personal projects but having access to other repos, etc., using things like 1Password for work and personal things, how has the discovery process worked with everything? I'm really interest…

I'd be inclined to agree but it seems like they've talked to YC and it's endorsed by them as well: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/646448913566687232

as well as https://blog.ycombinator.com/on-the-shred-video-lawsuit

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#44

Post by snake117 » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

dmourati wrote: post #29

"Mark wanted an amicable departure with Smule, and was more than willing to help his former boss and co-workers after he left." Rookie mistake Mark. Clean break, and go do your thing. Good luck but you need to understand where you made your mistake before launching this whole David vs Goliath story.

I had the same feeling when I read how they told Mark to keep the laptop.

I wish you guys all the best and hope this gets sorted out soon.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#45

Post by joeblau » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:04 PM UTC

I'm always so paranoid of this at any of my employers so I go through great lengths ensure everything is separated. It's a lot more work in terms of managing your stuff, but can simplify situations like these. I always keep my work and my personal projects completely separated. Separate machines, separate repos, separate accounts and I don't do personal stuff at work. My goal is to have a clear separation so if either of us decide that our contract isn't working; it's as frictionless at possible. While I applaud the fight for what's right, there is no doubt that a legal disagreement will take time away from building the product that your users want.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#46

Post by TallGuyShort » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:04 PM UTC

rancur wrote: post #23

jegutman wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the company. PR is a proportional thing. If the CEO of a company is caught on video killing kittens that can kill 50% of a $100,000,000 company or 50% of $1,000,000 company. Public relations / branding is proportional in that way. Money on the other hand is slightly more constant, so in the two cases above it might be a 2 million dollar hit to each. A possible gamble to the 100 million dollar company but n…

> is caught on video killing kittens ?

Just an extreme example of bad PR.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#47

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:04 PM UTC

pbh101 wrote: post #17

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have the resources to bleed you in litigation, would they not have the resources to care little about bad PR?

Maybe if it were Oracle, but in this case it is another startup which runs in the same circles and benefits from credibility from a similar audience, even if only for developer recruiting.

Oracle is exactly who came to mind when I was typing out my reply :)

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#48

Post by 7Figures2Commas » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:05 PM UTC

mikeshreds wrote: post #9

cenal wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not affiliated with them so my thoughts are my own. I'd wager this is a last nuclear option before they lose their company to the lawsuit. If they can manage to publicly shame the company suing them they stand a shot at keeping the company alive. Typically lawyers hate posts like this because it's public record now what happened and if any of this isn't true and provable 100% it can hurt them, a lot. There are so…

This is not a last nuclear option, and we're not in danger of losing our company to the lawsuit. Everything in the post is 100% true. We did get a lawyer involved when we started Shred Video, and are 100% sure our IP is clean and usable. It will take probably two years for the case to get fully adjudicated, and the legal recourse for preventing frivolous lawsuits like this is insufficient. Starting a startup is plent…

> It will take probably two years for the case to get fully adjudicated...

During which time many prospective investors, partners and customers won't want to touch you with a 10 foot pole.

> ...and the legal recourse for preventing frivolous lawsuits like this is insufficient.

To be honest, this doesn't look like a frivolous lawsuit, even if this goes to trial and is adjudicated in your favor.

Your post indicates that you and your co-founder quit your jobs at Smule to start Shred. In your post, you detail the differences between some of the technology behind Smule's products and your own, but it is clear that Smule and Shred are in the same general space as far as technology is concerned.

The intellectual property assignment agreements most employees sign cover inventions, processes, discoveries, etc. that are made or conceived of during their terms of employment. They often contain language referring to "the present or reasonably anticipated business" of the employer.

While none of this means you can't leave an employer to start a business in the same space, matters like this can be incredibly messy. If you believe that your defense will be successful because you can prove you didn't steal code outright, you are being incredibly naive. It's not that simple.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#49

Post by mikeshreds » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:06 PM UTC

mangeletti wrote: post #38

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

Wow, this is a really informed comment. To add to this, as a software engineer, while thinking through Smule's AutoRap app and the Shred Video app, I couldn't help but think that they could both probably benefit from a similar method for detecting (or synching with) beats, chorus, etc. Even though this sort of audio posterization (I'm not sure what it's really called) is not entirely novel, it's probably a reasonably…

Don't you think this will be absolved with a review of Shred Video's code/methods vs Smule's code/methods? And isn't it telling that Shred Video is more than willing to submit to such a review, but Smule has not yet acquiesced?

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#50

Post by aidenn0 » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 11:07 PM UTC

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

How can you steal an idea? There is little to no protection for ideas. More tangible information may have a lot of protection, but ideas are more-or-less fair game.