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When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

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Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#71

Post by x0x0 »

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

Or a bareknuckled way to take 10% of a company, or even just a signal to intimidate current employees.

I worked for a small ($30-$50m annual revenue) company sued by a giant ($47B annual revenue) company. The goal, which worked, was to drain my employer's bank accounts on $5+m of legal expenses per year to keep a superior but less expensive product out of market.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#72

Post by lacker »

mikeshreds wrote: post #49
mangeletti wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this is a really informed comment. To add to this, as a software engineer, while thinking through Smule's AutoRap app and the Shred Video app, I couldn't help but think that they could both probably benefit from a similar method for detecting (or synching with) beats, chorus, etc. Even though this sort of audio posterization (I'm not sure what it's really called) is not entirely novel, it's probably a reasonably…

Don't you think this will be absolved with a review of Shred Video's code/methods vs Smule's code/methods? And isn't it telling that Shred Video is more than willing to submit to such a review, but Smule has not yet acquiesced?

That doesn't seem telling to me, because Smule is probably just listening to their lawyers. And their lawyers are probably advising them to just wait for court. That seems like the right strategy for Smule regardless of the facts of the case.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#73

Post by aidenn0 »

tptacek wrote: post #67
aidenn0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you steal an idea? There is little to no protection for ideas. More tangible information may have a lot of protection, but ideas are more-or-less fair game.

That's probably not even close to true. Without wading into the morass of what an "idea" is, a boilerplate employee agreement might list things like: technical information, methods, processes, formulae, compositions, systems, techniques, inventions, machines, computer programs, research, business information, customer lists, pricing data, sources of supply, financial data, and marketing, production, or merchandising…

All of those are more tangible than "ideas."

IANAL, but here's an example:

"It would be cool to make an app that does X" "Our marketing research shows that there is a $3B market for an app that does X" [edit]

Also, many states allow enforcement of non-compete agreements, and in some cases that may include areas the company is planning on entering at the time of your employ.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#74

Post by thoman23 »

[deleted] wrote: post #64
mikeshreds wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Paul thanks for your comments. In the code comparison, the 3rd party will also be able to look at methods (in addition to code copied directly). We're more than happy to include proprietary methods in the review. On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole. What do you think is our burden of responsibility in proving we did not steal ideas our opponen…

[deleted]

"and you guys can all be friends". What world are you living in? This man is trying to destroy their livelihood. It's almost like a direct physical attack on them and their families.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#75

Post by 7Figures2Commas »

mikeshreds wrote: post #60
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will take probably two years for the case to get fully adjudicated... During which time many prospective investors, partners and customers won't want to touch you with a 10 foot pole. > ...and the legal recourse for preventing frivolous lawsuits like this is insufficient. To be honest, this doesn't look like a frivolous lawsuit, even if this goes to trial and is adjudicated in your favor. Your post indicates tha…

In our case, we did not develop anything Shred-related (ideas or otherwise) while we were employed at Smule. So invention assignment is not at issue, because we did not moonlight on Shred Video while employed by Smule. I knew I wanted to build products for the GoPro audience, which is why I left Smule. Mark left for his own different reasons, and we only began prototyping on things that turned into Shred Video after…

> In our case, we did not develop anything Shred-related (ideas or otherwise) while we were employed at Smule. So invention assignment is not at issue, because we did not moonlight on Shred Video while employed by Smule.

Please recognize that assignment is likely an issue because Smule will almost certainly try to claim the opposite of what you're claiming. It doesn't mean that they will be able to prove their claims, but you should at least be aware of the fact that there are two sides to every legal dispute and both parties have the opportunity to make their case.

If this isn't matter isn't settled, the legal process provides the means to sort it all out and you'll have the opportunity to evaluate the evidence supporting Smule's claims as part of the discovery process.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#76

Post by appleflaxen »

[deleted] wrote: post #64
mikeshreds wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Paul thanks for your comments. In the code comparison, the 3rd party will also be able to look at methods (in addition to code copied directly). We're more than happy to include proprietary methods in the review. On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole. What do you think is our burden of responsibility in proving we did not steal ideas our opponen…

[deleted]

What do you mean by "legalistic"? Isn't that the right type of defense, when you are dealing with law?

Say there is another case with all the facts are exactly as stated: goliath vs. little guy, and you are the little guy. What would you have the little guy do differently?

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#77

Post by hvo »

david_shaw wrote: post #61
paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

I appreciate this unbiased view. You're absolutely right that reading emotional appeals online is a slippery slope. However, reading this Business Insider article about the case ( http://www.businessinsider.com/smule-ceo-shred-video-lawsuit... ) really underscores the apparent sleaze on Smule's side: > You compare a 100-person company with 10, 30, 40 million dollars in the bank to a two-person startup. If it goes to…

In other words,head we win,tail you loose,according to Jeff Smith.Sounds like a bully to me.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#78

Post by thoman23 »

tptacek wrote: post #67
aidenn0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you steal an idea? There is little to no protection for ideas. More tangible information may have a lot of protection, but ideas are more-or-less fair game.

That's probably not even close to true. Without wading into the morass of what an "idea" is, a boilerplate employee agreement might list things like: technical information, methods, processes, formulae, compositions, systems, techniques, inventions, machines, computer programs, research, business information, customer lists, pricing data, sources of supply, financial data, and marketing, production, or merchandising…

@aidenn0 > "Our marketing research shows that there is a $3B market for an app that does X" <-- likely protected. ----- I don't see how even that would or should be protected.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#79

Post by codingdave »

"...the US legal system offers little protection against frivolous lawsuits."

If they believe that, they need better lawyers. I know this is over-simplified, but -- If the lawsuit is truly frivolous they can file for a summary judgment. If that is not granted, then the lawsuit was not frivolous.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#80

Post by sandworm101 »

grizzles wrote: post #66
paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

lol @ preposterous. That's the law yo. Copyright - Source code that has been copied. Patent - Monopoly on an idea. Trade Secret Law - N/A. They are former employees. Non Compete Agreement - Agreements in restraint of competititon are void in California. Shred's story sounds credible to me. The fact that Smule offered to make this lawsuit go away in exchange for equity sounds a lot like extortion to me. Why would they…

>Trade Secret Law - N/A. They are former employees. Non Compete Agreement - Agreements in restraint of competititon are void in California.

I would respectfully disagree with these assertions. Trade Secret is not void just because someone is a former employee. You don't get to walk out the door with the secret recipes. And there are many exceptions to california's ban on non-compete agreements. Non-compete agreements are also very different than non-disclosure agreements.

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