Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 241 posts

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#61

Post by david_shaw »

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

I appreciate this unbiased view. You're absolutely right that reading emotional appeals online is a slippery slope.

However, reading this Business Insider article about the case (http://www.businessinsider.com/smule-ceo-shred-video-lawsuit...) really underscores the apparent sleaze on Smule's side:

> You compare a 100-person company with 10, 30, 40 million dollars in the bank to a two-person startup. If it goes to litigation, if we're wrong, we'll win.

> Right? We'll win. We'll put a giant law firm on it and we'll do all of the discovery and we'll do all the depositions and we'll win. And if we're right, we'll still win.

Pretty much no matter how you slice it, saying "even if we're wrong, we'll win" because of money in the bank sounds pretty awful.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#62

Post by aidenn0 »

analog31 wrote: post #57
aidenn0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you steal an idea? There is little to no protection for ideas. More tangible information may have a lot of protection, but ideas are more-or-less fair game.

I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it, if you're under non disclosure, somebody shares an idea with you, and you use it, then you've stolen an idea. Or, if the idea is patented. Enforcement could be another issue, depending on evidence.

You also can't patent ideas.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#63

Post by sandworm101 »

analog31 wrote: post #57
aidenn0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you steal an idea? There is little to no protection for ideas. More tangible information may have a lot of protection, but ideas are more-or-less fair game.

I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it, if you're under non disclosure, somebody shares an idea with you, and you use it, then you've stolen an idea. Or, if the idea is patented. Enforcement could be another issue, depending on evidence.

Non-disclosure is just a form of contract. It doesn't itself protect ideas from theft. If they are valuable enough, or if the contract is not enforceable, then the person can still walk away with the material. They need to look to tradesecret law, that is IF any of their code qualifies for tradesecret protection.

The big if is in the relevant code: "(d) Trade secret means information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program, device, method, technique, or process, that (2) Is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy."

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?file=3426-3426...

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#64

Post by [deleted] »

mikeshreds wrote: post #41
paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

Hi Paul thanks for your comments. In the code comparison, the 3rd party will also be able to look at methods (in addition to code copied directly). We're more than happy to include proprietary methods in the review. On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole. What do you think is our burden of responsibility in proving we did not steal ideas our opponen…

[deleted]

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#65

Post by Sleaker »

Errr, All I'm seeing in the article is a, 'We didn't use any of their code guys, see compare the functionality of our products yourself.' Unfortunately, as true as the article might be, simply showing different functionality doesn't mean you didn't steal other portions of the codebase that don't deal directly with the algorithms of what you're doing. For all the reader knows you stole video decoding/encoding, audio decoding/encoding portions or something even as innocuous as a GUI frontend. Now agreeing to do a 3rd party analysis is a wise thing, hopefully the legal system forces this. If the accusation is that code was stolen, then someone should have to actually verify against what is alleged that they stole, it'd be pretty ridiculous if they awarded any damages without doing anything like this and simply went on the basis that 'they are similar products or may use similar algorithms.' Being similar or using similar algorithms does not mean they are the same.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#66

Post by grizzles »

paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

lol @ preposterous. That's the law yo.

Copyright - Source code that has been copied. Patent - Monopoly on an idea. Trade Secret Law - N/A. They are former employees. Non Compete Agreement - Agreements in restraint of competititon are void in California.

Shred's story sounds credible to me. The fact that Smule offered to make this lawsuit go away in exchange for equity sounds a lot like extortion to me. Why would they settle for a % of a company when they already own 100% of the secret sauce that was stolen? If their claim is as baseless as this article [1] suggests, RICO or anti-SLAPP laws should definitely apply.

[1] https://blog.ycombinator.com/on-the-shred-video-lawsuit

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#67

Post by tptacek »

aidenn0 wrote: post #50
paulsutter wrote: post #30

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

How can you steal an idea? There is little to no protection for ideas. More tangible information may have a lot of protection, but ideas are more-or-less fair game.

That's probably not even close to true. Without wading into the morass of what an "idea" is, a boilerplate employee agreement might list things like:

technical information, methods, processes, formulae, compositions, systems, techniques, inventions, machines, computer programs, research, business information, customer lists, pricing data, sources of supply, financial data, and marketing, production, or merchandising systems or plans

If your employer is working with a concept or idea and can tangibly tie it to anything like these (or any of a similar list of "artifacts") that employees had access to, then it's very dangerous for employees to start their own firms based on those concepts or ideas.

(I have no idea what's going on with Smule/Shred! Shred sounds very credible right now.)

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#68

Post by api »

dmourati wrote: post #29

"Mark wanted an amicable departure with Smule, and was more than willing to help his former boss and co-workers after he left." Rookie mistake Mark. Clean break, and go do your thing. Good luck but you need to understand where you made your mistake before launching this whole David vs Goliath story.

When I left an employer to found a startup, I didn't say a word. Just said I was leaving for another position, gave notice, and left normally.

I agree: rookie mistake. This is particularly true given that there's at least some market overlap (video, etc.) and the CEO gave a talk where he basically threatened employees.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#69

Post by gearoidoc »

chc wrote: post #34
hsod wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it possible that there's another side to this?

Given Smule's apparent lack of interest in investigating whether their allegations have merit, it seems a little hard to imagine that their side of things actually does have merit.

How can you declare their lack of interest in investigating - the Medium post is 2 hours old. If you think that its simply a case of not using your old employers code then you're naive (See: The Social Network).

FTR: I'm not on either side here but I'm unsure if this blog post was the wisest move.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#70

Post by dclowd9901 »

iamleppert wrote: post #15

I am sad to say I was a Smule customer, having downloaded and played Magic Piano. I also purchased quite a few songs inside the app. It is/was a great app. Not anymore. I've deleted Magic Piano and I'll never again be downloading, purchasing or contributing to in any way Smule or Jeff Smith's companies or products.

Oh, shit, that's where I remember the name from. They made the Ocarina app for the iPhone. Who would've thought a company could succeed on novelties like that?
Post reply on HN