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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#171

Post by JorgeGT »

1ris wrote: post #166
JorgeGT wrote: post #5

I research for the auto industry and this was very well known by the authorities. Fixed test cycles like the New European Driving Cycle https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Ne... were easy to detect, and easy to optimize against. That's why coming regulations introduce more realistic cycles like WLTC https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/WL... and real road tests, where partic…

I hope this gets fixed, although I don't believe it. I care about the noise emissions. AFAIK they are measured on a real road, but only up to 50 km/h and in a ridiculous narrow test. Harley Davidson and other are known to optimise for this test with movable parts in the exhaust pipes so these get much louder when the bikes goes faster than 50 Km/h.

I actually work on aeroacoustics! My specialty is turbomachinery but regarding combustion noise, let me say that it is a very tricky subject... even slight variations on the fuel injection settings and valve openings can have a high impact on noise!

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#172

Post by toomuchtodo »

ryandrake wrote: post #91
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #20

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

California's CARB is the gestapo of car emissions. If anyone has the motivation, expertise, and evil disposition to detect this, it's the state of California. I've never lived in a state like this. Bi-yearly tailpipe sniffs and visual inspections. Even if your car's emissions are cleaner than their ridiculous requirements, they'll still fail your car if it has parts on it that are not stock. I ended up having to sell…

Very happy to hear CARB is working!

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#173

Post by MadManE »

meatysnapper wrote: post #138
izacus wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, since here in EU the VAG group cars (Seat, Škoda, VW, Audi) are widely perceived as the most reliable and there's a huge amount of people buying nothing else.

Perhaps it's where they are built. I assume most US-bound VWs are from Mexico or US proper due to NAFTA and auto-import regulations.

My 2011 Jetta was built in Hamburg, according to the VIN plate.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#174

Post by zardo »

daniel-levin wrote: post #136

Many of the comments in this thread follow a similar pattern. They are all essentially derivatives of Goodhart's law. [0] >> Once a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. It's quite useful to have a name - a label - for this sort of behaviour. In this case, the means by which VW optimised for this metric was crafty computer software! A metric is only as good as the cost of the unintended consequence…

>This kind of incident reinforces (in me at least) the idea that environmental legislation is an extraordinarily difficult thing to get right.

And the more detailed you make the regulation to prevent gaming, the harder it is for new competitors to enter the industry. Also good god having read and interpet their frequently self contradicting regs is a nightmare. Hell, Tesla got hit with an EPA penalty early on because they didn't certify the roadster's non-existant emissions.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#175

Post by anigbrowl »

cmurf wrote: post #108

I wonder if the primary control code should be open source. That's without respect to right to modify or reuse the code, just whether it should be mandatory that it be published. And it'd exclude things like user space apps and UI/UX stuff. But any of the code that controls or affects steering, acceleration, ignition, braking, and lighting, really seems like it's not OK to just consider it a black box, subject to DMC…

Perhaps we need an approach whereby abuse of patented or otherwise protected technology should be punished in part by termination of the monopoly protection, and its immediate free availability to competitors. I imagine it would create some serious economic hurt for VW if these allegations are proven to be true and their ECS were made public domain - far more than a fine, or at least any fine that's likely to be politically acceptable.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#177

Post by McGlockenshire »

zardo wrote: post #144
organsnyder wrote: post #2

This is actively malicious. There had better be criminal charges filed.

I expect at the least they are going to get hit with the maximum administrative fine, 37,500 per vehicle.

That maths out to somewhere in the ballpark of eighteen billion dollars.

In 2012, the EPA issued $252 million in fines, total. Kia & Hyundai were fined $300 million total in 2014.

I don't see them hitting VW with eighteen billion.

e: Eh, that might not be so unreasonable after all. In 2012, VW made about $28 billion in profit on $250 billion of sales.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#178

Post by thrownaway2424 »

pc86 wrote: post #131
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course this is a major part of their marketing. If the EPA makes them reflash my ECU and as a result my fuel consumption goes up noticeably I'm going to expect them to buy the car back. They sold them on false claims. This also pretty much guarantees that I will never buy another VW.

> If the EPA makes them reflash my ECU and as a result my fuel consumption goes up noticeably I'm going to expect them to buy the car back. Good luck with that.

If they face a choice between having to pay an EPA fine equal to the original sale price of the car, or buying them back at depreciated values, I can imagine which one they'd prefer.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#179

Post by TsiCClawOfLight »

superuser2 wrote: post #121
swang wrote: post #97

I love the look/feel/drive of a VW, but I will never again own one. My parents bought a 2002 VW which I mostly drove and the maintenance costs were through the roof. There have been at least 3-4 recall notices, one time while parked on an incline, it rained and flooded the back of the car with water. When I went to VW, they said that I had to manually clean out some drainage underneath the car. How the hell am I goin…

This was true for much of the 2000s, but the new platform used from ~2009 onwards (the one implicated here) has been perfectly fine. The 2009-2016 Golfs get consistent Very Good/Good reliability ratings from Consumer Reports. They're still not Honda, but they're now better than average.

VW have a much better reputation than Honda in Europe.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#180

Post by Lawtonfogle »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #160
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time you arrest a parent for committing a crime, you destroy a part of their child's life. Using collateral as justification to avoid punishment results in a system where entities can become to important to punish at all.

We're talking about how to punish not if. If you can punish a parent in a way that does not affect the child, surely that has to be preferred way of doing it.

So we accept differential treatment based on one's having kids? What happens if the better punishment from the kid's perspective is actually worse for the parent?
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