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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

131–140 of 341 posts

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#131

They even made commercials to prove how clean the cars are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNS2nvkjARk I own a TDI VW and fell into believing that the ride is indeed clean. Now it looks like their software hacks are even more refined than the combustion tech.

Of course this is a major part of their marketing. If the EPA makes them reflash my ECU and as a result my fuel consumption goes up noticeably I'm going to expect them to buy the car back. They sold them on false claims. This also pretty much guarantees that I will never buy another VW.

> If the EPA makes them reflash my ECU and as a result my fuel consumption goes up noticeably I'm going to expect them to buy the car back.

Good luck with that.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#133
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you are satirical. How would fining the end users solve the problem?

Because no one will ever buy a VW again, and so other carmakers will take note.

And people will be on the hook for $20,000 because they purchased something from a now-nonexistent company?

That's idiotic.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#134

The NYT is being disingenuous in presenting this as VW detecting the EPA test cycle and doing something to cheat. I think they've confused open loop and closed loop engine operation. VW's 4-cylinder engines which failed the EPA tests are all turbo engines. Turbo engines run hotter than naturally aspirated engines and so, they produce more NOx, since it's one of the high temperature byproducts. In fact, EGR (exhaust g…

The cars in this recall are all diesel.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#135

Instead of fining the manufacturer, just fine everyone who owns one. If every VW owner was forced to pay 20k or so, the problem would fix itself.

Well, sure, if auto purchasers were at risk of massive fines if they received a vehicle where the manufacturer had done something that the average user wouldn't have the skill to detect, no one subject to the government imposing such fines would ever buy a car again, which would solve the problem quite completely.

OTOH, destroying the entire auto industry in the subject jurisdiction might not be considered an optimal means of resolving the problem. (And, indeed, might be so suboptimal to the population as to have catastrophic political consequences for the government imposing it.)

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#136
Many of the comments in this thread follow a similar pattern. They are all essentially derivatives of Goodhart's law. [0]

>> Once a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.

It's quite useful to have a name - a label - for this sort of behaviour. In this case, the means by which VW optimised for this metric was crafty computer software! A metric is only as good as the cost of the unintended consequences that come with imposing it on people, in particular large corporations.

I am not surprised that this is done by many corporations as mentioned elsewhere in the comments (ATI/Nvidia etc). This is because regulations and benchmarks that can be gamed, such as engine efficiency, will be gamed because the incentives of corporations work out that way:

(I hope this isn't perceived as an anti-corporate rant because it's not. Just a way of framing facts).

For regulations imposed on large corporations in general (think EPA admissions standards):

1) Regulations are mandated by a government to effect some purpose (stop destroying Earth)

2) Executives - the people running the corporations - are bound by legal responsibility - their fiduciary duty [1] - to create value for their shareholders (selling lots of cars, and profitably).

3) Regulations can obstruct the activities of a corporation by making them do things they don't want to (making efficient cars is hard and costly and affects the bottom line - its cheaper to manufacture a car with less platinum [2] in it)

4) Companies are incentivized to minimize the time and money spent on adhering to regulations

5) Once a regulation is standardised and codified, it becomes possible to follow the letter of it, while ignoring the spirit of it. All a corporation has to do is meet the metrics in the specification to abide by the regulation - in other words - game the system.

Given these incentives, we have seen that corporations prefer to abide by regulations in the maximally efficient way: gaming them. Thus reducing a well-meaning government initiative to gamesmanship.

Kudos to the EPA for calling VW out on this. This kind of incident reinforces (in me at least) the idea that environmental legislation is an extraordinarily difficult thing to get right.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fiduciary_duty

[2] Catalytic convertors

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#137

The NYT is being disingenuous in presenting this as VW detecting the EPA test cycle and doing something to cheat. I think they've confused open loop and closed loop engine operation. VW's 4-cylinder engines which failed the EPA tests are all turbo engines. Turbo engines run hotter than naturally aspirated engines and so, they produce more NOx, since it's one of the high temperature byproducts. In fact, EGR (exhaust g…

> The NYT is being disingenuous in presenting this as VW detecting the EPA test cycle and doing something to cheat. I think they've confused open loop and closed loop engine operation.

The NYT is not at all confused. The cars in question have software in the ECM specifically meant to detect testing. The software looks at various inputs, including steering wheel position, speed, duration of operation, and barometric pressure. The values it looks for precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure use for EPA certification.

When the software detected this, it switched to a mode that VW actually called "dyno calibration". At all other times, it used a mode VW called "road calibration".

Source: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15....

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#138
post #118
post #97

I love the look/feel/drive of a VW, but I will never again own one. My parents bought a 2002 VW which I mostly drove and the maintenance costs were through the roof. There have been at least 3-4 recall notices, one time while parked on an incline, it rained and flooded the back of the car with water. When I went to VW, they said that I had to manually clean out some drainage underneath the car. How the hell am I goin…

Interesting, since here in EU the VAG group cars (Seat, Škoda, VW, Audi) are widely perceived as the most reliable and there's a huge amount of people buying nothing else.

Perhaps it's where they are built. I assume most US-bound VWs are from Mexico or US proper due to NAFTA and auto-import regulations.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#139
post #41

The technical debt of petrol engines is becoming apparent.

The technical debt of petrol engines is not relevant to this article: > The allegations cover roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars sold in the United States since 2009.

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker. I thought the word "petrol" includes diesel, too!

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#140
post #26

When I last bought a VW (2008) I was concerned due to a clunking noise after first starting it up and driving a few miles; I called the VW service dept and they explained that there was a compressor which captured exhaust fumes and released them at a lower rate for the first few miles of each journey -- to help them meet EPA emissions standards. I was assured there was nothing to worry about. While this is a differen…

Just because they used various tools to attempt to meet EPA standards doesn't mean any or all of those tools are illegal. What you're describing sounds like either a smog pump and/or a charcoal canister. Both are legal and widely used means of controlling emissions.

The emissions guidelines, in your case, likely weren't being "gamed" so much as the manufacturers were just coming up with innovative and cheap ways of reducing emissions. Start/stop features on some newer cars are a way of doing this but this doesn't sound like someone "gaming" the system. If you're not very automotive savvy then you may have misunderstood what the technician was explaining or the logic/purpose behind the system.

What VW did though is completely different with regards to the software although not necessarily illegal until we have all the facts. Based on what the article says, it sounds like they developed a special "emissions mode" which went outside the normal operating parameters with the ultimate goal of reducing the emissions. That in and of itself is not illegal since it passed emissions that way. The illegal part probably comes from when it switch back into normal mode where it never would have passed emissions that way.

We can assume for one reason or another that the "emissions mode" is unsustainable for regular driving (for one reason or another) which is why it was only used when absolutely necessary to pass emissions.

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