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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#101

Post by organsnyder »

Amorymeltzer wrote: post #82
organsnyder wrote: post #2

This is actively malicious. There had better be criminal charges filed.

Agreed. This somewhat mollifying quote gives hope: >"Using a defeat device in cars to evade clean air standards is illegal and a threat to public health," said Cynthia Giles, the E.P.A.’s assistant administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance.

Also, this:

> California, the E.P.A. and the Justice Department are working together on an investigation of the allegations.

Though I hold similar pessimism to cmurf. If we can't even bring criminal charges against people that destroy the economy, I don't have high hopes for anyone being charged for destroying the environment (given the difference in priority they're normally given).

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#102

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

Hermel wrote: post #96

If these controllers were open source, drivers could decide on their engine settings themselves. That could be an interestimg strategy for VW as it would move responsibility to the drivers.

It's my understanding that there's plenty of aftermarket opportunities available for this kind of tuning.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#103

Post by toomuchtodo »

izacus wrote: post #89
CurtHagenlocher wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a more charitable interpretation. When engines are colder, they burn less efficiently and produce "worse" emissions. A system that treats the warmup period differently than the steady-state of running a hot engine is potentially quite reasonable.

If you output those same emissions at a different time you haven't really done a lot for environment (except if they're cycled through catalyc converter or DPF filter which are usually less effective on cold start) - you're just gaming the system to get better eco ratings.

If you're recirculating exhaust back into the engine, you're able to attempt to reburn any fuel that wasn't burned on the first pass, while also exposing any emissions to higher temperatures on the second pass (higher temperatures = easier to break down when those emissions reach the emissions control system).

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#104

Post by spydum »

s1lver wrote: post #99
spydum wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the noise was poorly explained. What they describe is likely the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation ). This isn't a system to game emissions, it's an active component in real emissions reduction. Still I get your point: manufacturers are clearly going to optimize based on the measured metrics. How do we know those metrics are meaningful in the overall syst…

ERG is just a pipe from the exhaust to the intake with a valve. Compressing and carefully releasing would be much more complicated and very much a not normal way of lowering exhaust temperature to reduce emissions.

Yes, on second thought, they probably confused secondary air injection ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection ) with EGR. It's very possible they were explaining secondary air, which doesn't compress exhaust gas, but does inject air into the exhaust gas to help burn more efficiently (not clear on the mechanism, I always thought it was a method to improve catalytic converter efficiency at startup).

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#105

Post by hn9780470248775 »

swang wrote: post #97

I love the look/feel/drive of a VW, but I will never again own one. My parents bought a 2002 VW which I mostly drove and the maintenance costs were through the roof. There have been at least 3-4 recall notices, one time while parked on an incline, it rained and flooded the back of the car with water. When I went to VW, they said that I had to manually clean out some drainage underneath the car. How the hell am I goin…

IIRC, 2002 was around a local minimum in VW reliability.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#106

Post by thrownaway2424 »

swang wrote: post #97

I love the look/feel/drive of a VW, but I will never again own one. My parents bought a 2002 VW which I mostly drove and the maintenance costs were through the roof. There have been at least 3-4 recall notices, one time while parked on an incline, it rained and flooded the back of the car with water. When I went to VW, they said that I had to manually clean out some drainage underneath the car. How the hell am I goin…

On the newer ones the high pressure fuel pump disintegrates and poops metal bits into the engine, requiring the engine to be replaced. That's why VW recently extended the warranty against the HPFP to, if I recall correctly, 100k miles.

Here's the 400-page-long forum thread on that defect: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=308323

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#107

Post by kuschku »

ryandrake wrote: post #91
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #20

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

California's CARB is the gestapo of car emissions. If anyone has the motivation, expertise, and evil disposition to detect this, it's the state of California. I've never lived in a state like this. Bi-yearly tailpipe sniffs and visual inspections. Even if your car's emissions are cleaner than their ridiculous requirements, they'll still fail your car if it has parts on it that are not stock. I ended up having to sell…

More interestingly: Did the German TÜV not detect this? They have even stricter rules.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#108

Post by cmurf »

I wonder if the primary control code should be open source. That's without respect to right to modify or reuse the code, just whether it should be mandatory that it be published. And it'd exclude things like user space apps and UI/UX stuff. But any of the code that controls or affects steering, acceleration, ignition, braking, and lighting, really seems like it's not OK to just consider it a black box, subject to DMCA, copyright, and trade secrets laws and thus risky (or flat out illegal) to reverse engineer and understand how it works. And right now a significant part of an automobile is a black box, and you do not fully own it.

It was supposed to be that patenting required you to fully disclose all the details of an invention. The idea was to not only make clear what you had a monopoly for, but so that others could learn from your invention and make something different that was better.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#109

Post by devicenull »

joshrotenberg wrote: post #79
devicenull wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I have a 2015 Jetta which is why I was curious. I wonder if this explains why my car sounds really weird for the first few minutes of running.

I think that's just a diesel thing.

I don't have a diesel, but it sure sounds like I do!

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#110

Post by jhallenworld »

spydum wrote: post #104
s1lver wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ERG is just a pipe from the exhaust to the intake with a valve. Compressing and carefully releasing would be much more complicated and very much a not normal way of lowering exhaust temperature to reduce emissions.

Yes, on second thought, they probably confused secondary air injection ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection ) with EGR. It's very possible they were explaining secondary air, which doesn't compress exhaust gas, but does inject air into the exhaust gas to help burn more efficiently (not clear on the mechanism, I always thought it was a method to improve catalytic converter efficiency at startup).

The usual failure mode is that it sounds like a loud vacuum cleaner for ~90 seconds after cold start up.. not sure about clunking.
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