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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#81

Post by spydum »

dayjah wrote: post #26

When I last bought a VW (2008) I was concerned due to a clunking noise after first starting it up and driving a few miles; I called the VW service dept and they explained that there was a compressor which captured exhaust fumes and released them at a lower rate for the first few miles of each journey -- to help them meet EPA emissions standards. I was assured there was nothing to worry about. While this is a differen…

Perhaps the noise was poorly explained. What they describe is likely the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation ). This isn't a system to game emissions, it's an active component in real emissions reduction.

Still I get your point: manufacturers are clearly going to optimize based on the measured metrics. How do we know those metrics are meaningful in the overall system.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#82

Post by Amorymeltzer »

organsnyder wrote: post #2

This is actively malicious. There had better be criminal charges filed.

Agreed. This somewhat mollifying quote gives hope:

>"Using a defeat device in cars to evade clean air standards is illegal and a threat to public health," said Cynthia Giles, the E.P.A.’s assistant administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#83

Post by superuser2 »

flippyhead wrote: post #37

I don't quite understand how the car can known it's getting an emissions test. I thought you just pulled up and revved the engine. Or do they plug the computer in nowadays?

In Wisconsin you drive to a specific testing facility and, when it's your turn, onto a testbed with rollers under the wheels. They spin endlessly without the car going anywhere until the test is over, when the rollers are locked so the car can drive off of them. During the test they attach a hose to the exhaust.

Engine revs in drive with no corresponding accelerometer output or change in GPS position should be a pretty solid indicator of "I'm in an emissions testing facility right now." Doubly so if there's an OBD-II reader attached.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#84

Post by CurtHagenlocher »

dayjah wrote: post #26

When I last bought a VW (2008) I was concerned due to a clunking noise after first starting it up and driving a few miles; I called the VW service dept and they explained that there was a compressor which captured exhaust fumes and released them at a lower rate for the first few miles of each journey -- to help them meet EPA emissions standards. I was assured there was nothing to worry about. While this is a differen…

There is a more charitable interpretation.

When engines are colder, they burn less efficiently and produce "worse" emissions. A system that treats the warmup period differently than the steady-state of running a hot engine is potentially quite reasonable.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#85

Post by blacksmith_tb »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #20

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

Here in Oregon my '03 TDI gets a quick ODB-II and a visual inspection (i.e. is the Check Engine light off, is the exhaust not full of smoke, etc.). Of course, I'd expect CA to be the most stringent state.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#86

Post by thrownaway2424 »

bpodgursky wrote: post #60

What actually incentivizes a customer to take their car to a shop to get this fixed though? It's not causing harm to individual car owners, and it's not like they can get collections agencies to sieze them. Seems like they're going to have trouble getting compliance here...

In California CARB can order all of these cars to be inspected and if they aren't, the DMV won't renew the registrations.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#87

Post by JorgeGT »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #72
JorgeGT wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a common strategy is to inject more EGR (exhaust gas) into the fresh intake air. As EGR is already burned, it is inert, so it negatively affects the combustion, lowering the temperature. With lower combustion temperature you get less NOx... but less power for each amount of fuel, so your efficiency/performance is lower, and also non burned products (CO, C) increase. You then trap those with the Diesel Particulat…

Since this EPA action is about NOx, it seems VW will need to lower combustion temperature, leading to higher soot and therefore more particulate filter cycles. That will also increase fuel consumption.

Yep! And increased fuel consumption = increased CO2. Endless fun! x)

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#88

Post by pico303 »

efm wrote: post #61
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #20

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

Colorado does drive-by testing, on freeway on ramps, and other locations with high traffic. If your car fails, or hasn't been monitored by that system recently, you get a notice for the more complete inspection. The drive-by inspection doesn't require the co-operation of the driver or car, so is harder to game by detecting you are being tested.

As a TDI owner and Colorado resident, I can tell you that the drive-by testing does not apply to diesel vehicles, nor do you take diesels to the emissions testing centers. You have to take your diesel to a state-licensed diesel mechanic for testing.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#89

Post by izacus »

CurtHagenlocher wrote: post #84
dayjah wrote: post #26

When I last bought a VW (2008) I was concerned due to a clunking noise after first starting it up and driving a few miles; I called the VW service dept and they explained that there was a compressor which captured exhaust fumes and released them at a lower rate for the first few miles of each journey -- to help them meet EPA emissions standards. I was assured there was nothing to worry about. While this is a differen…

There is a more charitable interpretation. When engines are colder, they burn less efficiently and produce "worse" emissions. A system that treats the warmup period differently than the steady-state of running a hot engine is potentially quite reasonable.

If you output those same emissions at a different time you haven't really done a lot for environment (except if they're cycled through catalyc converter or DPF filter which are usually less effective on cold start) - you're just gaming the system to get better eco ratings.
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